Brexit Poll 1/2/16

[Timmy40]

XJ40 said:

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

Well that's certainly a reasonable, sound arguement to make but I'm sure sure how widespread that is amongst the great unwashed. I think that there's a lot of Brexitiers, those of the 'kipper persuasion mainly, who just want less immigration full stop. They don't want the strain on public service and don't want jonnny foreigner taking their jobs and benefits (rightly or wrongly).

I think what they want is what UKIP propose which is skills based, controlled immigration, which is what the US, Canada, Austalia, NZ have, yet none of the anti UKIP lobby hold up these countries as examples of extreme xenophobia?

[Esseesse]

danllama said:

matsoc said:

I don't see anything wrong about this TIN, it would be useful...

Useful for rounding people up and packing them on to meat carriages?

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

First comment I thought was about right when it comes to EU matters...

IvorSchwartzporsche said:

EU's four-stage strategy to reduce Britons to servitude

Stage One is mock-incredulity:

"No one is proposing any such thing. It just shows what loons these sceptics are that they could even imagine it."

Stage Two is bravado:

"Well all right, it's being proposed, but don't worry: we have a veto and we'll use it."

Stage Three is denial:

"Look, we may have signed this, but it doesn't really mean what the critics are claiming."

Stage Four is resignation:

"No point complaining now, old man: it's all been agreed."

Edited by Esseesse on Wednesday 25th May 17:12

[The Moose]

XJ40 said:

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

Well that's certainly a reasonable, sound arguement to make but I'm sure sure how widespread that is amongst the great unwashed. I think that there's a lot of Brexitiers, those of the 'kipper persuasion mainly, who just want less immigration full stop. They don't want the strain on public service and don't want jonnny foreigner taking their jobs and benefits (rightly or wrongly).

All I want (on immigration) is for immigrants to be net contributors to society as a general group.

[don4l]

matsoc said:

don4l said:

andymadmak said:

Exactly! We are not voting for the status quo or leave, we are voting for changed EU or leave. But no one can be sure what this changed EU will actually look like, or whether it will genuinely address the concerns of those who might be persuaded to vote to stay if the thing was sorted out properly.

I disagree.

Anyone who can be bothered to read the first sentence of the Treaty of Rome can see exactly what it will look like.

Today's statement from Brussels is just another small, but essential step along the path.

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

Our TIN card will, of course, have our photo on it. The card will soon be accepted across Europe as proof of identity. It is clear what is afoot here.

I don't see anything wrong about this TIN, it would be useful...

Agreed.

It will be necessary when taxes are collected directly by Brussels.

[turbobloke]

don4l said:

Agreed.

It will be necessary when taxes are collected directly by Brussels.

GPWM.

[XJ40]

The Moose said:

XJ40 said:

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

Well that's certainly a reasonable, sound arguement to make but I'm sure sure how widespread that is amongst the great unwashed. I think that there's a lot of Brexitiers, those of the 'kipper persuasion mainly, who just want less immigration full stop. They don't want the strain on public service and don't want jonnny foreigner taking their jobs and benefits (rightly or wrongly).

All I want (on immigration) is for immigrants to be net contributors to society as a general group.

How would you define that though?

The figures show that most immigrants work, so on average they are adding to economic activity at least. There are many natives claiming benefits who could be said to be making little or even a negative contribution to society, many immigrants could be better UK citizen then these?

[The Moose]

XJ40 said:

The Moose said:

XJ40 said:

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

Well that's certainly a reasonable, sound arguement to make but I'm sure sure how widespread that is amongst the great unwashed. I think that there's a lot of Brexitiers, those of the 'kipper persuasion mainly, who just want less immigration full stop. They don't want the strain on public service and don't want jonnny foreigner taking their jobs and benefits (rightly or wrongly).

All I want (on immigration) is for immigrants to be net contributors to society as a general group.

How would you define that though?

The figures show that most immigrants work, so on average they are adding to economic activity at least. There are many natives claiming benefits who could be said to be making little or even a negative contribution to society, many immigrants could be better UK citizen then these?

We are stuck (within reason of course!) with the UK Citizens, however we are not when it comes to immigrants.

I don't know what the figures show, but if someone is going to bring their family (Chap, his wife and 2 kids) over here and work a £18k a year job they are not likely to be net contributors. They are the immigrants that I don't want.

On occasion, I employ the services of one such chap. Good at what he does, but unfortunately it's not a high paying role. His (also immigrant) misses has had one of her kids over here (the other came when he was quite young) and works a part time job. Between them, they earn circa £22k a year. They are likely to take more out of the system than they put in. I'm not being racist, xenophobic or anything else - that's just the likely case and I'd rather they weren't here taking from our system

[NailedOn]

danllama said:

NailedOn said:

They’re foreign aren’t they?
That’s all that matter to the kippers and Daily Express readers.

Really pushing the boundaries of intellectual, thought provoking discussion there, aren't you?

tt.

I fear you have missed the tone of my original post.
Nonetheless you have spoken for yourself and now we can all see you for what you are.

[Einion Yrth]

NailedOn said:

danllama said:

NailedOn said:

They’re foreign aren’t they?
That’s all that matter to the kippers and Daily Express readers.

Really pushing the boundaries of intellectual, thought provoking discussion there, aren't you?

tt.

I fear you have missed the tone of my original post.
Nonetheless you have spoken for yourself and now we can all see you for what you are.

Do feel free to elucidate, but your comment would seem to fall into that category of unthinking insult that many of us are tiring of; I would hesitate to immediately label you as a [would be redacted] but I'm currently leaning, while it's still permitted, to thinking that you might be.

[don4l]

NailedOn said:

danllama said:

NailedOn said:

They’re foreign aren’t they?
That’s all that matter to the kippers and Daily Express readers.

Really pushing the boundaries of intellectual, thought provoking discussion there, aren't you?

tt.

I fear you have missed the tone of my original post.
Nonetheless you have spoken for yourself and now we can all see you for what you are.

No, I think that we can all see you for what you really are.

You appear to revel in your moral superiority.

Well done you!

[///ajd]

The Moose said:

All I want (on immigration) is for immigrants to be net contributors to society as a general group.

It would be interesting to see if - on balance - the number of immigrants working and paying taxes actually out numbered the non-working immigrants to the extent that the latter were fully funded by the formers tax receipts.

[The Moose]

///ajd said:

The Moose said:

All I want (on immigration) is for immigrants to be net contributors to society as a general group.

It would be interesting to see if - on balance - the number of immigrants working and paying taxes actually out numbered the non-working immigrants to the extent that the latter were fully funded by the formers tax receipts.

It would indeed be interesting.

However I suggest that if you removed the immigrants who are not contributors then that balance would be much further in the opposite direction

[markh1973]

don4l said:

matsoc said:

don4l said:

andymadmak said:

Exactly! We are not voting for the status quo or leave, we are voting for changed EU or leave. But no one can be sure what this changed EU will actually look like, or whether it will genuinely address the concerns of those who might be persuaded to vote to stay if the thing was sorted out properly.

I disagree.

Anyone who can be bothered to read the first sentence of the Treaty of Rome can see exactly what it will look like.

Today's statement from Brussels is just another small, but essential step along the path.

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

Our TIN card will, of course, have our photo on it. The card will soon be accepted across Europe as proof of identity. It is clear what is afoot here.

I don't see anything wrong about this TIN, it would be useful...

Agreed.

It will be necessary when taxes are collected directly by Brussels.

Returning to the real world it's a useful concept. Given the various agreements which now exist about cross border sharing of information a supra-national identification system would ensure that PH's Don4l isn't wrongly associated with some other Don4l.

[Mario149]

fido said:

Mario149 said:

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

If you really believe many of the homeless people sleeping around London are going to be deported back to the EU because they haven't found a job within 3 months you are deluded. I even have Romanian people selling the Big Issue outside Wimbledon station in SW London.

http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/eea-national%E2%80...

"EEA nationals are normally allowed to enter and stay in the UK for for a period not exceeding three months unless other conditions are met, for instance if they exercise ‘treaty rights’ to work, study or declare themselves as ‘self sufficient’.

However, most people ignore this rule or do not realise it exists, and the UK Border Agency (UKBA) do not pursue EEA national ‘overstayers’."

My sister works for UKBA so don't really need lectures on what they can or cannot do. Practically, what would be the point of deporting them (not to mention the huge costs involved) when they could just return the next week on a Megabus!

Edited by fido on Tuesday 24th May 13:58

Right, so like me you're saying we can deport them even if we're in the EU but we just don't? Thanks for reinforcing my point. And if you don't want them on the next megabus in, how about using computers to log people we have deported so their passports flag up at UK entry points....like we do already.

[Mario149]

John145 said:

Mario149 said:

Mario149 said:

fido said:

Mario149 said:

And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

<snip>That's absolute rubbish. It's near impossible to enforce because it is relatively easy to prove you are looking for a job and currently studying part-time.</snip>

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

Been about 4 pages since I posted this yesterday. So given that we can get rid EU migrants if they're not working etc already, why do we need to leave the EU to do it suddenly?

Reminds me of a FB thingy I saw the other day:

Is the following statement true or false:

If you work in a minimum wage job you will be entitled to in work benefits?

If yes, then there is no Schroedinger at work, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

That's reliant on the critical fact that a UK person would have to be willing got do that job in the first place, which they almost never are. I'm sure quite a few of you heard the Bangladeshi chap on R4 this morning saying that, in response to Vote Leave claiming our curry culture is dying due to lack of labour, he's voting in as he can't employ Bangladeshis because of all the red tape to bring them currently as the min wage must be £30K+, and that won't change in future as the UK doesn't want the number of immigrants needed even if we do leave, British people won't do the job, so he's left with employing Romanians who despite not speaking English are apparently the best people for the job.

So the real comparison is, what is the net benefit to our treasury of someone working minimum wage, claiming some in work benefits but not for long when the 4 year thing kicks in, and contributing to our economy while paying taxes etc, and making the business a success which in turns pays taxes.....compared to that job lying empty and the ramifications it has on that business and how much income the treasury receives?

[Mario149]

NailedOn said:

Mario149 said:

NailedOn said:

The EU debate is NOT about immigration.
Glad that's clear.

http://news.sky.com/story/1700509/uk-becoming-more...

The fact that multiculturalism didn't work, that Blair failed to 'teach us a lesson,' is ALL YOUR FAULT.

You cannot blame the immigrants who are here and failed to:
Speak English
Obey the law (British not Sharia that is)
Respect their host country
Integrate


No, they are victims of racial/ethnic/something else discrimination.
They have rights but not responsibilities.
You, you, you white tax-paying bigot, you had better 'embrace' diversity.
Or else.

Remember, these people brought us, er:
Mosques
FGM
Terrorists
Burkas

What did you do for diversity? You bigot. From wherever.

Let's vote Remain and welcome the world to the NHS, social housing, contra flow and potholes.
C' mon in. Everybody else has!

you do realise the immigrants you're talking about don't come from the EU right? And leaving will have no bearing on whether they come here or not? 8/10 for the rant though

They’re foreign aren’t they?
That’s all that matter to the kippers and Daily Express readers.

Apologies, didn't realise you were taking the mick

[Mario149]

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

We are getting the immigration we need, ironically most of it is labour that doesn't require skill because it's the low paid jobs British people won't do.

[RYH64E]

Regardless of what the polls say, the odds at the bookies are heavily in favour of 'remain', Ladbrokes have 19% leave 81% remain. I should say that I don't understand betting odds, how it works or how the odds are calculated, I've never even bought a lottery ticket, but they do seem to be confident of a remain vote.

http://sports.ladbrokes.com/sports-central/uk-eu-r...

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-odds-l...

[FiF]

Problem with betting odds is that at the opening of the book they represent the bookies view of things, after that strongly influenced by the amount of money laid. Which may be realistic, also may not be.

[turbobloke]

In terms of the general election, at one point there was a 6% - 94% position with 94% on a hung parliament and those odds were overturned by the electorate. Indeed according to the quote below, some experts gave the position as 0% - 100% and still got it wrong. Just sayin'

Head of political odds at Ladbrokes Matthew Shaddick talking to Bloomberg said:

Punters were piling into a Tory majority at 10/1 on the day, when we thought it had no chance and some political scientists put it at exactly a zero percent possibility.