So who wants to remain in the EU?

[Guybrush]

brenflys777 said:

I'm convinced of the benefits of exit, however I appreciate I might end up in the minority at the vote, so I desperately wanted to see a properly reformed EU.

CMD's managed reforming the EU in the same way poor quality meat is reformed into spam. Its presented in a way that looks palatable, but we know the substance is the same.

Everyone I've heard interviewed from the most pro-EU to the most anti-EU has talked of the need for reform, so the one uniting feature across all parties seems an acceptance that the EU needs to evolve, so do the pro-EU posters think Cameron has failed deliberately or through ineptitude?

If people are still going to vote remain when the EU has shown no ability to accommodate substantial reform, do they embrace an organisation that is institutionally incapable of constructive criticism?

One cannot 'reform' the EU. It knows what it wants, it is what it is.

[irocfan]

CrutyRammers said:

handpaper said:

For me, the whole issue was decided by seven words, uttered by an EU official around the time of the first, illegal, Greek bailout :

"The facts were ahead of the law"*

Not only was there no mechanism in EU law for the transfer, it was specifically forbidden. An organisation that will ignore its own laws when they don't suit its immediate objectives is not one I want to be part of. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't exist at all.

Indeed, this is my primary objection to the whole project. They will break whatever laws they have to in order to get what they want, for our own good of course. Not something I want to be a part of.

I actually feel dirty typing this but.... to be fair to the EU I suspect that most countries do this to greater or lesser extents

[devonshiredave]

Breadvan72 said:

Thanks for the lecture, but

(a) I am familiar with the world of derivatives, as many of my clients are involved in that world, so I have to be at least broadly conversant with what they do for a living, although I do not profess expertise in the subject; and

(b) Your lecture should be directed at whichever poster it was who thought that derivatives help farmers plan crops and shipyards build ships.

This digression grew from a discussion about what is and is not a real job. I am not sure, BTW, that the term real job is a helpful one, as in some sense any job is a real job, if the person doing it gets paid for it and is therefore able to be active in the economy (better still of that person pays some tax), but of course some jobs are more useful than others. I do laugh at the PH notion that being, for example, a City trader or an IT consultant is "real world" but that being, for example, a criminal lawyer is "ivory tower". I am none of those things, by the way.

The starting point was the claim that Farage is in some way the real deal because he once, long ago, did some trading in the City (he has been a full time politician ever since then). This, to his benighted fans, makes him Johnny Salt of the Earth, and that's a notion that is more than faintly ludicrous, I suggest.

Apologies, wasn't trying to lecture, merely offering some (hopeful) clarity on this often confusing topic.

I gave up working in the city last year after my wife was diagnosed with MS. I have now started my own joinery business - Fred will surely see me as having a real job now.

Cheers

ETA I couldn't be bothered fighting through the quote mess so just replied to yours.

Edited by devonshiredave on Friday 5th February 08:30

[so called]

don4l said:

so called said:

I want to stay in.
Have to find a new job otherwise

What do you do?

I work as a Consultant to a German Company covering North America and India as an Application Engineer but also tasked with advising on product requirements for market expansion.

[anonymous-user]

so called said:

don4l said:

so called said:

I want to stay in.
Have to find a new job otherwise

What do you do?

I work as a Consultant to a German Company covering North America and India as an Application Engineer but also tasked with advising on product requirements for market expansion.

There would be nothing stopping you from carrying on with that if we were out of the EU. Why would you think it might?

[toppstuff]

Message to the Exit camp...

OK, I am listening. But I admit that I am disappointed about the message on leaving the EU.

The focus is all on the bad things we will be able to miss - borders, EU bureaucracy etc etc.. blah blah - Ok I get it !

But what about a positive narrative about leaving the EU?

For example, would this not be an opportunity to embrace the UK population so we can all work together on a constitution, a new bill of rights ? This could be a very positive, very inclusive process that would really bring people together; creating a new UK constitution to replace the EU, to include the human rights act. We would be telling the world what we stand for. A very positive thing IMO.

So why the hell isn't anyone talking about the positive things we can do out of the EU? Why all the negatiive campaigning?

Tell me about the good things we can do if we leave..

[Funkycoldribena]

REALIST123 said:

so called said:

don4l said:

so called said:

I want to stay in.
Have to find a new job otherwise

What do you do?

I work as a Consultant to a German Company covering North America and India as an Application Engineer but also tasked with advising on product requirements for market expansion.

There would be nothing stopping you from carrying on with that if we were out of the EU. Why would you think it might?

I think some people are under the impression that if there's an out vote the phone lines to Europe are going to be cut, ferries are going to move to the Isle of Wight and Easyjet are going to do only internal flights from London to Glasgow.

[Mandalore]

I think some people have been sniffing solvents.

[Foliage]

toppstuff said:

Tell me about the good things we can do if we leave..

Im swaying towards exit

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/personalfinance/sup...

TL;DR The EU forces us to charge 5% VAT on womens sanitary products. Osborne has pledge to give the money to women charities because he cant 'not' charge the VAT. (I personally don't see why not, what they gonna do arrest him..)

Edited by Foliage on Friday 5th February 11:42

Edited by Foliage on Friday 5th February 11:47

[so called]

Funkycoldribena said:

REALIST123 said:

so called said:

don4l said:

so called said:

I want to stay in.
Have to find a new job otherwise

What do you do?

I work as a Consultant to a German Company covering North America and India as an Application Engineer but also tasked with advising on product requirements for market expansion.

There would be nothing stopping you from carrying on with that if we were out of the EU. Why would you think it might?

I think some people are under the impression that if there's an out vote the phone lines to Europe are going to be cut, ferries are going to move to the Isle of Wight and Easyjet are going to do only internal flights from London to Glasgow.

No, my confusion is because of something my Accountant said. Need to go back and get it clarified.
Thanks for slapping my face

[so called]

Mandalore said:

I think some people have been sniffing solvents.

Not sniffing solvents but someone once sprinkled something quite amazing on my fish and chips (unbeknownst to me) in San Francisco.
Fortunately didn't end up in the Blue Lagoon Bar

[don4l]

toppstuff said:

Message to the Exit camp...

OK, I am listening. But I admit that I am disappointed about the message on leaving the EU.

The focus is all on the bad things we will be able to miss - borders, EU bureaucracy etc etc.. blah blah - Ok I get it !

But what about a positive narrative about leaving the EU?

For example, would this not be an opportunity to embrace the UK population so we can all work together on a constitution, a new bill of rights ? This could be a very positive, very inclusive process that would really bring people together; creating a new UK constitution to replace the EU, to include the human rights act. We would be telling the world what we stand for. A very positive thing IMO.

So why the hell isn't anyone talking about the positive things we can do out of the EU? Why all the negatiive campaigning?

Tell me about the good things we can do if we leave..

We could negotiate our own trade deals with countries like India and China. Unlike the EU, these countries have growing economies.

We would re-take our seat on the World Trade Orginisaton.

We would take full control of our foreign policy.

We could get back to dredging our waterways.

We would restore our fishing waters to UK based fishermen.

We could do away with many useless and costly EU directives.

We would reduce the deficit by £50Bn a year.

Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan would lose their jobs.

We could re-open some of our coal fired power stations and bring down the cost of electricity.

The list goes on, and on.

[Cobnapint]

cardigankid said:

Back at the start in 75 I voted in favour of joining the EEC because against a background of increasingly left wing government in Britain, it was a model of economic efficiency. If the EU as it now is was fairly and efficiently run there is no doubt that we should stay in.

Problem is, it isn't.

It is grossly inefficient, corrupt, riddled with nepotism and fraud, cannot manage its affairs or and has become a mechanism for promoting German trade within a relatively weak currency zone, with a whole lot of hangers-on being funded in their inefficiency.

It cannot take controversial decisions (e.g. migrants) except when Germany wants something done in which case it happens.

Britain's interests are among its lower priorities.

It is a bottomless financial pit, and its accounts would disgrace Trotters Independent Trading Company.

It has a flawed currency which is always just waiting for the next crisis.

It has become a 'political project' to create a European Superstate, which is the direct opposite of the efficient economic zone it started out as. Everybody wants the Germans to run it but whines when they do.

It is reducing in global importance compared with the rising economies, even if these are relatively weak at present. Do we really want the EU dictating our trading relationships with India, China and Russia?

Cameron's deal is a load of worthless hot air, showing just how much influence Britain has at the so-called 'top table'.

The only reasons for wanting to stay in are that a. our political leaders and civil servants are probably more stupid and venal than theirs, and b. that it will result in instability, particularly in relation to Scotland, which could do us all quite a bit of damage.

Agree with all of that.

And I still don't get why people who want to stay in think that all the above is good for Britain's future. And that's before Germany let's Turkey gatecrash the party.

[anonymous-user]

cardigankid said:

Britain's interests are among its lower priorities.

And then some. How much did the EU give Ford to move Transit production from Southampton to Turkey? $140m? Fvck them.

[Ali Chappussy]

Let's get one thing straight, the British public never voted to join the EU, they voted to join the Common Market, whose purpose and agenda is totally different to that of the EU.

[Wills2]

I'm going to vote to stay in the EU, after all our bureaucrats are no better and just as wasteful as theirs.

I've got time for Farage but it's all black and white to him and it really isn't, it's a grey soup whether we're in or out, so I'd rather not have the hassle and uncertainty that a vote to leave result would give.

I do think the current renegotiation around welfare changes etc is a good thing and I'd like to see reform across the board and a fairer settlement for the UK but within the EU.

[don4l]

Ali Chappussy said:

Let's get one thing straight, the British public never voted to join the EU, they voted to join the Common Market, whose purpose and agenda is totally different to that of the EU.

The agenda is, and always was, "ever closer union".

The very first sentence of the treaty of Rome gives the game away.

[emicen]

irocfan said:

it is one of the things that makes this referendum such a complete fubar. There's an unholy alliance of the SNP, some Tories, LibDems and most (IIRC) Labour, 'big business', BBC looking to stay in - at the same time you have many unions, hard left, some Tories, a rump of Labour, a lot of the press, some big business looking to leave. It is going to be fascinating!

One of the issues that I can see is, as pointed out by James O'Brien (a presenter I normally disagree with vehemently), that a lot of the outties are rabid/frothing at the mouth types barely capable of stringing a sentence together. It is these types who may persuade waverers to take the opposite tack merely to avoid association with them, which is not helpful whichever way you look at it. Meanwhile the 'innies' are either dreadfully earnest types who seem to be an antidote to fun or ready to pounce with scare stories about how we'll revert to some sort of pre-historic subsistance lifestyle without the aid of the mighty EU, which is also not helpful

A counter point would be the rabid/frothing at the mouth types up here are near as dammit all committed Nats who want us to vote in, so the same may well happen in the opposite direction.

[s2art]

Wills2 said:

I'm going to vote to stay in the EU, after all our bureaucrats are no better and just as wasteful as theirs.

I've got time for Farage but it's all black and white to him and it really isn't, it's a grey soup whether we're in or out, so I'd rather not have the hassle and uncertainty that a vote to leave result would give.

I do think the current renegotiation around welfare changes etc is a good thing and I'd like to see reform across the board and a fairer settlement for the UK but within the EU.

But you do want the hassle and uncertainty that staying in would give? Remember the EU is on a wild ride to political unification, particularly the eurozone, and we will get caught up in it. Take a look at the 5 presidents paper.
BTW the negotiations on welfare reform mean nothing, any changes will be voted on in the european parliament, and there is no chance of us getting a majority on this.

[superlightr]

Wills2 said:

I'm going to vote to stay in the EU, after all our bureaucrats are no better and just as wasteful as theirs.

I've got time for Farage but it's all black and white to him and it really isn't, it's a grey soup whether we're in or out, so I'd rather not have the hassle and uncertainty that a vote to leave result would give.

I do think the current renegotiation around welfare changes etc is a good thing and I'd like to see reform across the board and a fairer settlement for the UK but within the EU.

At least they are OUR ste MP's !!!

You at least have a chance of changing OUR ste MP's you dont have any chance of changing their ste MP's.


Why not allow the UK to forge its own way - to Boldly Go forward, the be in control of our own destiny rather then suffocated by the EU?

Do you really want to have greater unity with the EU?

Have the EU not wasted so much money and demand that we give them even more - sure our govt does the same but at least its wasted on some semblance of benefit for the UK and we can reform. The EU is beyond reform. remember we pay £50bn a year just to belong to the EU? Think what benefit that could do for this country.

Dont by apathetic - this is the one chance in our lifetime of breaking away from the EU project. When my parents voted they voted for a common market/ ease of trade NOT EU control/loss of sovereignty. My father is dead now but he felt he was betrayed by what he was told when he voted. This is our chance to correct this wrong.

We will still trade, we will still prosper. Have no doubt that the EURO will fail which will hit Greece and then a knock on effect. The EU has no control over its boarders. Its a bully boy and does not like it when try to stop paying him our dinner money. £50 Billion each year. FFS think about that amount being paid from you and I and every body else in this country.

The EU want ever closer ties - do you?

Edited by superlightr on Friday 5th February 16:59