So who wants to remain in the EU?

[AJL308]

Zod said:

The same way everyone else has explained it: groups of uneducated men with medieval attitudes to women, behaving abominably. The idea that it was organised by some group is risible.

I didn't say by some 'group', as such. All of these men hailed from essentially the same part of the world and ended up distributed all over Europe. Many will have known each other. It's easy to text/whatsapp your mates to organise stuff.

You are right as well though. Europe has allowed in hundreds of thousands of uneducated young men with medieval attitudes to other people in a completely uncontrolled manner. A perfectly valid justification for my argument not to be in Europe! You make my case for me very well.

[AJL308]

Zod said:

So you think they were in contact and the discussion was something on the lines of:

HQ - are your men in position, Cologne leader?

Cologne leader - yes, HQ.

HQ - commence groping and rape operation, Cologne leader. Allahu Akbar!

Cologne leader (to HQ) - affirmative. Allahu Akbar!

Cologne leader to organised sexual assault gang - Go now and grope and rape the wanton, prostitute crusader women. Allahu Akbar!

Quite possibly? That or a variation thereon.

Fact is that Finland knew it was going to happen and arrested people at migrant holding centres. How did they know it was going to happen if it was spontaneous?

[anonymous-user]

Fantic SuperT said:

Breadvan72 said:

I don't have much time for injury lawyers and so on, but do they not pay any tax? If not, what's their tax dodge wheeze? Are they better at tax scams than the City dudes? Is dealing shares in the City more real world than, say, advising people some of whom who might be real refugees, or, for example, advising wealthy overseas business types on entry to the UK? (Not all immigration advisers work out of shop fronts in Hackney - some have plush offices in the West End and have PAs who can speak Russian and/or Chinese).

I was offering my opinion of 'proper', not referring to the HMRC guidelines. As it happens, in my opinion the service provided by derivatives traders for example does facilitate many long term plans like planting farm crops at a guaranteed sale price and ordering a ship to be built and paid for in a fluctuating foreign currency five years later etc. Tying our immigration service in knots doesn't, but then again I'm only expressing a personal opinion because I very occasionally visit these blogging sites. It doesn't really matter to anyone but it sometimes feels nice to take a break for a few minutes.

You may perhaps be treating futures trading as being synonymous with derivatives. There are, however, various esoteric derivatives that have little to do with ship building or crop planning, and the gambling games that are played with some of them can play havoc with the real world of growing things and making things. There is, however, an argument that all forms of economic activity, even some crime, are in some way beneficial to the overall good (although it would be pleasant if some of the big operators paid a tad more tax to ease the load carried by the rest of us). Churn, churn, churn, and all that.

As for posting vs working, my posting and working habits are utterly irrelevant to anyone but me, but, as you ask, I manage to do both because I work to my own erratic pattern, subject to various external pressures that I can't control. Oddly, if I go quiet on here that is usually because I have no work to do, but if I post on here a lot that usually means that I'm busy at work. I suspect that I am not alone in this.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 4th February 18:07

[FredClogs]

AJL308 said:

A perfectly valid justification for my argument not to be in Europe!

At some point, maybe with the help of an atlas or map, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are in Europe.

[dandarez]

FredClogs said:

Zod said:

FredClogs said:

Farage was a commodities broker, specialising in metals - if you can imagine Steptoe and Son but with Bowler hats, pin stripes hiding ladies underwear and a penchant for Colombian marching powder then you're in the ball park. It's not a real job. More than half of his old employers are now bankrupt or have faced serious reprimand by regulators for some of the stuff they got up to. It's not a real job. He got into politics because he wasn't very good at brokering metal sales, had a reputation as a bit of a bully and not being particularly bright and all the people who'd employed him in the past were bankrupted, jailed or so closely monitored by regulators that they couldn't take any chances.

I think Farage is a buffoon, a bully and a charlatan, but your post verges on being defamatory.

If any of what either of us has said is untrue, and he cares, then he can take action.

Are you on Twitter Cloggy?
(oh, sorry, I've offended the real Cloggy), I meant 'Dick'.

Post your comment above and see what happens?

He'd laugh Zod's off. But yours?

Go on... here you are.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage

CHICKEN!!!

[AJL308]

FredClogs said:

At some point, maybe with the help of an atlas or map, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are in Europe.

Well yes, I know that. I was using the phrase in relation to the EU as a political entity - not in the geographical sense - the way it's often used in these discussions. Please tell me you didn't actually think otherwise!

[FredClogs]

dandarez said:

FredClogs said:

Zod said:

FredClogs said:

Farage was a commodities broker, specialising in metals - if you can imagine Steptoe and Son but with Bowler hats, pin stripes hiding ladies underwear and a penchant for Colombian marching powder then you're in the ball park. It's not a real job. More than half of his old employers are now bankrupt or have faced serious reprimand by regulators for some of the stuff they got up to. It's not a real job. He got into politics because he wasn't very good at brokering metal sales, had a reputation as a bit of a bully and not being particularly bright and all the people who'd employed him in the past were bankrupted, jailed or so closely monitored by regulators that they couldn't take any chances.

I think Farage is a buffoon, a bully and a charlatan, but your post verges on being defamatory.

If any of what either of us has said is untrue, and he cares, then he can take action.

Are you on Twitter Cloggy?
(oh, sorry, I've offended the real Cloggy), I meant 'Dick'.

Post your comment above and see what happens?

He'd laugh Zod's off. But yours?

Go on... here you are.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage

CHICKEN!!!

I'm not on Twitter, sorry. What is it that has so upset you on his behalf? If you read Farage's wikipedia page his career and employers are public knowledge... Here's 3 of his 4 former employers...

Drexel Burnham Lambert - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexel_Burnham_Lambe...
Credit Lyonnais Rouse - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A9dit_Lyonnais
Refco - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refco

I don't think I've said anything that isn't factually accurate, he was maybe very unlucky to have been serially employed by shysters, criminals and bankrupts - I don't know.

[FredClogs]

AJL308 said:

FredClogs said:

At some point, maybe with the help of an atlas or map, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are in Europe.

Well yes, I know that. I was using the phrase in relation to the EU as a political entity - not in the geographical sense - the way it's often used in these discussions. Please tell me you didn't actually think otherwise!

In a cultural, historical and political sense, "we" are very much European or at least we should aim to be as we have been in the past, geographically also we don't have much choice.

[YankeePorker]

The problem is that the majority of the EU is now welded irrevocably together by the €. As a currency, this can only hope to survive by rapid harmonisation of €zone tax laws. If the € fails then I think the EU as we know it will be blown apart. The need to save the € will thus be the driving force for federalisation, integration and the end of the current nation states.

If the Brits vote to remain within the EU at the referendum, this will be taken as a mandate by our government to gradually integrate further into the EU project, whatever noise they make in the press about red lines and so on.

The choice then seems to me to be either on the periphery of a 2 speed EU with limited influence and increasing pressure to join the core while paying for the privilege, or outside the EU with no influence but at least not paying part of the cost of their federal, socialist project.

As I don't like the federalist path that the EU is set on, my vote would be to move away from it and leave the EU. This is all moot of course as I currently live abroad and won't be given a vote. The bds.

[AJS-]

I think it's a mistake to see the Euro as irrevocable. Currencies have been created before. It wouldn't be all that difficult for Greece or Spain to just go it alone, if they had the guts to do so.

[otolith]

Johnnytheboy said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'm trying to imagine the 24% of eurosceptic Grauniad readers on a similar basis.

It's complicated, I would say.

The Left used to be sceptical of Europe, until Delors sold the TUC a vision of a worker's paradise. Some of the diehards long remained so, suspecting it of all being some kind of free marketeer's plot - Benn and Corbyn, for example. Recently there has been growing dissent about TTIP, which has fed into that old fear, to the extent that some on the Left have executed an about-face on the EU.

On the other side of the coin, a lot of people's position on in/out is tied up with identity, and the EU is attractive to some people on the Left who dislike the idea of being British - it either makes them think of nationalism or imperialism, and the EU (despite being busy empire-building) offers an alternative and more internationalist feeling identity. The EU is also the apotheosis of massive government and redistributes vast flows of cash, and again some on the Left like that kind of thing. And there is also a deep vein of anti-Americanism, which prefers the UK to look East for solidarity, to a bloc of nations which have a political centre of mass on the opposite side of the UK to America on the Left/Right spectrum - much of the EU is habitually more collectivist than us.

[YankeePorker]

AJS- said:

I think it's a mistake to see the Euro as irrevocable. Currencies have been created before. It wouldn't be all that difficult for Greece or Spain to just go it alone, if they had the guts to do so.

Fair comment and certainly a small member of the €zone could opt or be kicked out, falling back on a reissue of their national currency without it killing the € project.

However, the type of imbalance that exists between France and Germany within the € can only be dealt with by rapid harmonisation of tax laws, minimum wages, benefits, state spending and so on. Obviously big players such as these could not opt out of the € without major upheaval. Hence galloping harmonisation towards federal Europe or they're screwed.

[devonshiredave]

FredClogs said:

I'm not on Twitter, sorry. What is it that has so upset you on his behalf? If you read Farage's wikipedia page his career and employers are public knowledge... Here's 3 of his 4 former employers...

Drexel Burnham Lambert - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexel_Burnham_Lambe...
Credit Lyonnais Rouse - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A9dit_Lyonnais
Refco - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refco

I don't think I've said anything that isn't factually accurate, he was maybe very unlucky to have been serially employed by shysters, criminals and bankrupts - I don't know.

Commodity broking not a real job.... Much experience doing that Fred?

From someone who does - you are talking utter crap.

[grumbledoak]

Twenty baby pages later, am I right in thinking that the only solid fact we have re: being in or out is the £55 million per day we give the EU would henceforth be ours?

Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?

[Funkycoldribena]

grumbledoak said:

Twenty baby pages later, am I right in thinking that the only solid fact we have re: being in or out is the £55 million per day we give the EU would henceforth be ours?

Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?

Plus the 1.7 bn paid last year.

[cardigankid]

Back at the start in 75 I voted in favour of joining the EEC because against a background of increasingly left wing government in Britain, it was a model of economic efficiency. If the EU as it now is was fairly and efficiently run there is no doubt that we should stay in.

Problem is, it isn't.

It is grossly inefficient, corrupt, riddled with nepotism and fraud, cannot manage its affairs or and has become a mechanism for promoting German trade within a relatively weak currency zone, with a whole lot of hangers-on being funded in their inefficiency.

It cannot take controversial decisions (e.g. migrants) except when Germany wants something done in which case it happens.

Britain's interests are among its lower priorities.

It is a bottomless financial pit, and its accounts would disgrace Trotters Independent Trading Company.

It has a flawed currency which is always just waiting for the next crisis.

It has become a 'political project' to create a European Superstate, which is the direct opposite of the efficient economic zone it started out as. Everybody wants the Germans to run it but whines when they do.

It is reducing in global importance compared with the rising economies, even if these are relatively weak at present. Do we really want the EU dictating our trading relationships with India, China and Russia?

Cameron's deal is a load of worthless hot air, showing just how much influence Britain has at the so-called 'top table'.

The only reasons for wanting to stay in are that a. our political leaders and civil servants are probably more stupid and venal than theirs, and b. that it will result in instability, particularly in relation to Scotland, which could do us all quite a bit of damage.

[handpaper]

FredClogs said:

Zod said:

FredClogs said:

Farage was a commodities broker, specialising in metals - if you can imagine Steptoe and Son but with Bowler hats, pin stripes hiding ladies underwear and a penchant for Colombian marching powder then you're in the ball park. It's not a real job. More than half of his old employers are now bankrupt or have faced serious reprimand by regulators for some of the stuff they got up to. It's not a real job. He got into politics because he wasn't very good at brokering metal sales, had a reputation as a bit of a bully and not being particularly bright and all the people who'd employed him in the past were bankrupted, jailed or so closely monitored by regulators that they couldn't take any chances.

I think Farage is a buffoon, a bully and a charlatan, but your post verges on being defamatory.

If any of what either of us has said is untrue, and he cares, then he can take action.

Explored this over on Telegraph blogs a few years ago, with regard to Dan Hodges' repeated insistence, in the run-up to the European elections, that UKIP was racist.
Broadly, a political party cannot sue for libel or slander. Individuals can, but depending on their political position, it may not suit them to do so.
At the time, it appeared that the only way UKIP could have shut Hodges up was for a prominent member to complain that he his reputation had been damaged by association with this "racist" party.
However, besides being a bit tenuous (I'm sure PH's legal eagles can tell me exactly what I've got wrong), it was felt that such an action would be inappropriate for an organisation that prioritised free speech and plain speaking.


With regard to the actual topic, I agree (partly) with Zod :

Zod said:

The big question now about Farage is when will the Out campaign realise that he has attracted as many supporters as he will ever attract and everyone else is turned off by him, with the result that he is not the asset to the Out campaign that he and his supporters believe him to be. For those who truly want to leave the EU, the best thing they could do in the meantime is lock up Farage.

There are enough people who simply will not listen to Farage or UKIP that having him head the 'official' Out campaign would be a huge mistake. Whether he's reached all he could I don't know - but it would seem a little odd for him to disappear...

For me, the whole issue was decided by seven words, uttered by an EU official around the time of the first, illegal, Greek bailout :

"The facts were ahead of the law"*

Not only was there no mechanism in EU law for the transfer, it was specifically forbidden. An organisation that will ignore its own laws when they don't suit its immediate objectives is not one I want to be part of. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't exist at all.

*

I distinctly remember this being said at the time; it got quite a bit or airplay and not a few column inches. However, I can't find who actually said it and Google gives no results for the phrase in quotes.
I'll be in a secret location, reinforcing my tinfoil hat...

[Vanin]

On a slightly more Pistonheads orientated topic, could those wanting to remain in the EU because of free trading and lack of tariffs could please explain why the cost of any car in Denmark is so high, even really ordinary second hand cars.
I wanted to buy a friend in Denmark a Ten year old Ford Mondeo for a couple of grand over here but by the time they had paid the duties it would be ten times the figure there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9853662/Buying-a-...

[dandarez]

devonshiredave said:

FredClogs said:

I'm not on Twitter, sorry. What is it that has so upset you on his behalf? If you read Farage's wikipedia page his career and employers are public knowledge... Here's 3 of his 4 former employers...

Drexel Burnham Lambert - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexel_Burnham_Lambe...
Credit Lyonnais Rouse - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A9dit_Lyonnais
Refco - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refco

I don't think I've said anything that isn't factually accurate, he was maybe very unlucky to have been serially employed by shysters, criminals and bankrupts - I don't know.

Commodity broking not a real job.... Much experience doing that Fred?

From someone who does - you are talking utter crap.

He always talks utter crap. And just for info, Dick, nothing you said has upset me on Farage's behalf. I just wondered if you'd still be man enough to say such things directly (well, on his forum). Especially in today's litigious UK. Thinking about it, you'd probably be fine. He'd probably ask you to go away and be a good little boy, for a change.

Farage is marmite. Everyone realises that and probably why he is being kept lower profile. Has he gained all the support he can? Who knows? But he is still miles more articulate and on the ball with this subject than any other. When he does appear, he reminds occasionally of things he said that have come to fruition. 'Peoples movement of biblical proportions', now that wasn't very accurate was it?

The other day he recalled good old honest CallMeDave back in November 2014. We all forget these things that were headlines at the time, and yeah, I'd forgotten until Nige recalled 'Thumping Desk Dave', and the £1.7 bn demand from the EU.
Remember? Tough talking Dave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29754168

So tough, he rolled over like a puppy and we coughed up.
Conveniently forgotten and hidden.

Remember, this is the same CMD doing the tough talking now on behalf of you 'in-crowd'.

Edited by dandarez on Thursday 4th February 20:42

[rs1952]

grumbledoak said:

Twenty baby pages later, am I right in thinking that the only solid fact we have re: being in or out is the £55 million per day we give the EU would henceforth be ours?

Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?

If it were true that the net cost to the UK for membership of the EU was £55m per day, it might be.

The trouble is, it's not true. It's part of the propaganda.

Be careful about what you believe. On both sides