So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
rs1952 said:
grumbledoak said:
Twenty baby pages later, am I right in thinking that the only solid fact we have re: being in or out is the £55 million per day we give the EU would henceforth be ours?
Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?
If it were true that the net cost to the UK for membership of the EU was £55m per day, it might be.Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?
The trouble is, it's not true. It's part of the propaganda.
Be careful about what you believe. On both sides
If it isn't £55m a day, then how much is it?
Go on, tell us.
grumbledoak said:
Twenty baby pages later, am I right in thinking that the only solid fact we have re: being in or out is the £55 million per day we give the EU would henceforth be ours?
Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?
Another fact which David Davis mentioned today on Andrew Neils show; Most of the FTAs the EU has arranged do not mention services. Aprox 70% of our economy is services and is a huge creator of invisible earnings for the UK, these deals are bad for the UK and we would do much better doing our own FTA's. I think he also said that TTIP doesnt include banking. WTF! The EU is not doing us any favours.Surely that alone is reason enough to leave?
Vanin said:
On a slightly more Pistonheads orientated topic, could those wanting to remain in the EU because of free trading and lack of tariffs could please explain why the cost of any car in Denmark is so high, even really ordinary second hand cars.
I wanted to buy a friend in Denmark a Ten year old Ford Mondeo for a couple of grand over here but by the time they had paid the duties it would be ten times the figure there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9853662/Buying-a-...
Not duties. That's tax, which is allowed. We have car tax here in the UK, it's just much lower. I wanted to buy a friend in Denmark a Ten year old Ford Mondeo for a couple of grand over here but by the time they had paid the duties it would be ten times the figure there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9853662/Buying-a-...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I must have missed the links to prove the allegation of cocaine use, the crossdressing, the fact he was stupid and a bully. Oh and the pretty obvious suggestion that he was somehow implicated in dishonesty because his employers were.But aye, apart from those minor points...
it is one of the things that makes this referendum such a complete fubar. There's an unholy alliance of the SNP, some Tories, LibDems and most (IIRC) Labour, 'big business', BBC looking to stay in - at the same time you have many unions, hard left, some Tories, a rump of Labour, a lot of the press, some big business looking to leave. It is going to be fascinating!
One of the issues that I can see is, as pointed out by James O'Brien (a presenter I normally disagree with vehemently), that a lot of the outties are rabid/frothing at the mouth types barely capable of stringing a sentence together. It is these types who may persuade waverers to take the opposite tack merely to avoid association with them, which is not helpful whichever way you look at it. Meanwhile the 'innies' are either dreadfully earnest types who seem to be an antidote to fun or ready to pounce with scare stories about how we'll revert to some sort of pre-historic subsistance lifestyle without the aid of the mighty EU, which is also not helpful
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I did not say that being pro-Europe necessarily means that you are anti-British. That's a misinterpretation of what I said of the cats/dogs/four legs variety.Some people on the left certainly do dislike Britishness as a national identity, because they associate it with nationalism and / or colonialism. The EU is attractive to those people. Others are attracted rather by the other factors I mentioned (which you didn't quote).
I will assume a failure of comprehension rather than a deliberate attempt to misrepresent my position.
irocfan said:
it is one of the things that makes this referendum such a complete fubar. There's an unholy alliance of the SNP, some Tories, LibDems and most (IIRC) Labour, 'big business', BBC looking to stay in - at the same time you have many unions, hard left, some Tories, a rump of Labour, a lot of the press, some big business looking to leave. It is going to be fascinating!
One of the issues that I can see is, as pointed out by James O'Brien (a presenter I normally disagree with vehemently), that a lot of the outties are rabid/frothing at the mouth types barely capable of stringing a sentence together. It is these types who may persuade waverers to take the opposite tack merely to avoid association with them, which is not helpful whichever way you look at it. Meanwhile the 'innies' are either dreadfully earnest types who seem to be an antidote to fun or ready to pounce with scare stories about how we'll revert to some sort of pre-historic subsistance lifestyle without the aid of the mighty EU, which is also not helpful
I'm a frustrated, pragmatic inner, but I agree with you. What I want from Cameron is more "this is just the start. You need us more than we need you, so do the necessary. One of the issues that I can see is, as pointed out by James O'Brien (a presenter I normally disagree with vehemently), that a lot of the outties are rabid/frothing at the mouth types barely capable of stringing a sentence together. It is these types who may persuade waverers to take the opposite tack merely to avoid association with them, which is not helpful whichever way you look at it. Meanwhile the 'innies' are either dreadfully earnest types who seem to be an antidote to fun or ready to pounce with scare stories about how we'll revert to some sort of pre-historic subsistance lifestyle without the aid of the mighty EU, which is also not helpful
But it's a negotiation between politicians with electorates to satisfy, so it will take time
Johnnytheboy said:
jshell said:
Even the Morning Start supports exit! http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-9f4c-The-oppo...
"...because it sees the EU as an irreformable capitalist monolith...Zod said:
I'm a frustrated, pragmatic inner, but I agree with you. What I want from Cameron is more "this is just the start. You need us more than we need you, so do the necessary.
But it's a negotiation between politicians with electorates to satisfy, so it will take time
I'm afraid ( from my point of view ) its a group like yourself who will be the ones who sway the vote to stay in. Not daring to vote out and simply taking what's given to you as a change and accepting it and voting in, despite knowing its meaningless. This is the group that is going to get Cameron what he really wants and just about get over the line. But it's a negotiation between politicians with electorates to satisfy, so it will take time
Zod said:
The big question now about Farage is when will the Out campaign realise that he has attracted as many supporters as he will ever attract and everyone else is turned off by him, with the result that he is not the asset to the Out campaign that he and his supporters believe him to be. For those who truly want to leave the EU, the best thing they could do in the meantime is lock up Farage.
Far better to have him assassinated and have it blamed on EU fanatics; propaganda gold!
YankeePorker said:
The problem is that the majority of the EU is now welded irrevocably together by the €. As a currency, this can only hope to survive by rapid harmonisation of €zone tax laws. If the € fails then I think the EU as we know it will be blown apart. The need to save the € will thus be the driving force for federalisation, integration and the end of the current nation states.
If the Brits vote to remain within the EU at the referendum, this will be taken as a mandate by our government to gradually integrate further into the EU project, whatever noise they make in the press about red lines and so on.
The choice then seems to me to be either on the periphery of a 2 speed EU with limited influence and increasing pressure to join the core while paying for the privilege, or outside the EU with no influence but at least not paying part of the cost of their federal, socialist project.
As I don't like the federalist path that the EU is set on, my vote would be to move away from it and leave the EU. This is all moot of course as I currently live abroad and won't be given a vote. The b
ds.
If the Brits vote to remain within the EU at the referendum, this will be taken as a mandate by our government to gradually integrate further into the EU project, whatever noise they make in the press about red lines and so on.
The choice then seems to me to be either on the periphery of a 2 speed EU with limited influence and increasing pressure to join the core while paying for the privilege, or outside the EU with no influence but at least not paying part of the cost of their federal, socialist project.
As I don't like the federalist path that the EU is set on, my vote would be to move away from it and leave the EU. This is all moot of course as I currently live abroad and won't be given a vote. The b
ds.the Electoral Commission said:
Who can register as an overseas voter?
If you are a British citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter.
You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.
Which elections and referendums can I vote in?
If you are registered as an overseas voter, you can vote in the following elections in the UK:
- European Parliament elections
- UK Parliament elections
EU referendum
Registered overseas voters will be able to vote in the upcoming referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union.
The date of the referendum has not been announced yet but it is scheduled to happen before the end of 2017.
How can I vote?
You can choose your method of voting depending on your personal circumstances.
In 2014 the way we register to vote changed, and if you want to vote by post or by proxy you must be registered under the new system. To check if you're correctly registered, contact the local authority of the address you are registered to. To find their contact details, enter the relevant postcode in the 'Your local area' box.
Voting by post
If you live abroad you can apply to vote by post.You need to make sure you have time to receive and return your ballot papers by polling day. If you don't think you can return them in time, you may want to consider voting by proxy.
To check when postal votes are being sent out contact the local authority of the address you are registered to. You can find their contact details in the 'Your local area' box at the top of the page.
Voting by proxy
If you're abroad you can apply to vote by proxy. This means you can appoint someone to vote on your behalf. Both you and the person you appoint as your proxy must be registered under the new system.
Voting in person
If you happen to be in the UK on election day, you can always vote in person at a polling station.
However, if you have appointed a proxy you can only do this if your proxy has not already voted on your behalf. If you have a postal vote, you cannot be issued with a ballot paper in the polling station but you can hand in your completed postal ballot at the polling station.
I wonder what shape the EU would be in if instead of initiating the rolling clusterfIf you are a British citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter.
You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.
Which elections and referendums can I vote in?
If you are registered as an overseas voter, you can vote in the following elections in the UK:
- European Parliament elections
- UK Parliament elections
EU referendum
Registered overseas voters will be able to vote in the upcoming referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union.
The date of the referendum has not been announced yet but it is scheduled to happen before the end of 2017.
How can I vote?
You can choose your method of voting depending on your personal circumstances.
In 2014 the way we register to vote changed, and if you want to vote by post or by proxy you must be registered under the new system. To check if you're correctly registered, contact the local authority of the address you are registered to. To find their contact details, enter the relevant postcode in the 'Your local area' box.
Voting by post
If you live abroad you can apply to vote by post.You need to make sure you have time to receive and return your ballot papers by polling day. If you don't think you can return them in time, you may want to consider voting by proxy.
To check when postal votes are being sent out contact the local authority of the address you are registered to. You can find their contact details in the 'Your local area' box at the top of the page.
Voting by proxy
If you're abroad you can apply to vote by proxy. This means you can appoint someone to vote on your behalf. Both you and the person you appoint as your proxy must be registered under the new system.
Voting in person
If you happen to be in the UK on election day, you can always vote in person at a polling station.
However, if you have appointed a proxy you can only do this if your proxy has not already voted on your behalf. If you have a postal vote, you cannot be issued with a ballot paper in the polling station but you can hand in your completed postal ballot at the polling station.
k that is the eurozone, concerted effort was directed toward making intra-europe foreign exchange movement cheap and easy.It's hard to see past the incompetence/corruption; how can it be reasonable to want to remain in an organisation that not only has not delivered a set of audited accounts for 20-odd years, it persecutes and prosecutes those who attempt to raise the matter in public or bring it to a halt?
fblm said:
Breadvan72 said:
You may perhaps be treating futures trading as being synonymous with derivatives...
Futures are derivatives your Honour.Esseesse said:
I cannot understand how they can legally/constitutionally take us in to something like the EU. I would love to have it explained/reasoned better than any reasoning I have found so far (which amounts to people saying kings/queens/oaths and all that are ancient history and therefore amount to the sq rt of f all).
Some of the more fruitloopy and wibblist anti-EU websites purvey a quaint and inaccurate view of the UK constitution and bang on about sacred oaths and Magna Carta and so forth. The reality is that the UK Constitution was not frozen in some fairytale version of the Middle Ages. The modern Constitution is partly found in a series of documents dating from the late seventeenth to the late twentieth centuries, and is partly contained in conventions. The fundamental rule, as Zod has pointed out, is that Parliament can do whatever it chooses to do. The Monarch is a mere cipher with no meaningful power, and suggestions that Brenda is a traitor, has betrayed her oath, and so on, are about as lacking in reality as suggestions that she is a space lizard working as an undercover agent for Planet Zog. Derek Smith said:
Not quite right.
The EU is a big player, despite having just one seat at the table. It is certainly a bigger player than the UK would be on its own. The idea of 1/28th ignores the fact that there are power groups within the EU.
Well, quite. And how often do the agendas of those power groups coincide with those of the uk? Yeah, not very. Meaning our voice is often totally drowned out.The EU is a big player, despite having just one seat at the table. It is certainly a bigger player than the UK would be on its own. The idea of 1/28th ignores the fact that there are power groups within the EU.
Derek Smith said:
The most remarkable thing about DC's negotiations was not so much the result as the fact that it was treated seriously. The UK is seen as important to the EU. Certainly more important than 1/28th.
taken seriously! As if it's not all just a charade to keep the masses in line. They need our money, that's why.Breadvan72 said:
I know. Perhaps I express myself badly. Futures are not the only type of derivative. There are other types that are not futures, and are far removed from the world of crop rotation and ship building.
Think of it like this:Derivatives = antibiotics. Antibiotics is an general term for a spectrum of medicines used to treat different illnesses.
Thus, you have derivatives, under which are futures, options, swaps etc etc.
Derivative, as the name implies, is a product which is derived from its underlying product/market.
There are no derivatives available that will hedge the cost of ship building. There are those that settle against the earnings of the vessel (conversely the cost of chartering the vessel). There are also steel derivatives, but these (that trade in any recognizable volume) are not for the same grade steel as used in shipbuilding.
There are also no crop rotation derivatives, but there are obviously crop product derivatives, as well as fuel, fertilizer and weather derivatives.
All the best.
Thanks for the lecture, but
(a) I am familiar with the world of derivatives, as many of my clients are involved in that world, so I have to be at least broadly conversant with what they do for a living, although I do not profess expertise in the subject; and
(b) Your lecture should be directed at whichever poster it was who thought that derivatives help farmers plan crops and shipyards build ships.
This digression grew from a discussion about what is and is not a real job. I am not sure, BTW, that the term real job is a helpful one, as in some sense any job is a real job, if the person doing it gets paid for it and is therefore able to be active in the economy (better still of that person pays some tax), but of course some jobs are more useful than others. I do laugh at the PH notion that being, for example, a City trader or an IT consultant is "real world" but that being, for example, a criminal lawyer is "ivory tower". I am none of those things, by the way.
The starting point was the claim that Farage is in some way the real deal because he once, long ago, did some trading in the City (he has been a full time politician ever since then). This, to his benighted fans, makes him Johnny Salt of the Earth, and that's a notion that is more than faintly ludicrous, I suggest.
(a) I am familiar with the world of derivatives, as many of my clients are involved in that world, so I have to be at least broadly conversant with what they do for a living, although I do not profess expertise in the subject; and
(b) Your lecture should be directed at whichever poster it was who thought that derivatives help farmers plan crops and shipyards build ships.
This digression grew from a discussion about what is and is not a real job. I am not sure, BTW, that the term real job is a helpful one, as in some sense any job is a real job, if the person doing it gets paid for it and is therefore able to be active in the economy (better still of that person pays some tax), but of course some jobs are more useful than others. I do laugh at the PH notion that being, for example, a City trader or an IT consultant is "real world" but that being, for example, a criminal lawyer is "ivory tower". I am none of those things, by the way.
The starting point was the claim that Farage is in some way the real deal because he once, long ago, did some trading in the City (he has been a full time politician ever since then). This, to his benighted fans, makes him Johnny Salt of the Earth, and that's a notion that is more than faintly ludicrous, I suggest.
I'm convinced of the benefits of exit, however I appreciate I might end up in the minority at the vote, so I desperately wanted to see a properly reformed EU.
CMD's managed reforming the EU in the same way poor quality meat is reformed into spam. Its presented in a way that looks palatable, but we know the substance is the same.
Everyone I've heard interviewed from the most pro-EU to the most anti-EU has talked of the need for reform, so the one uniting feature across all parties seems an acceptance that the EU needs to evolve, so do the pro-EU posters think Cameron has failed deliberately or through ineptitude?
If people are still going to vote remain when the EU has shown no ability to accommodate substantial reform, do they embrace an organisation that is institutionally incapable of constructive criticism?
CMD's managed reforming the EU in the same way poor quality meat is reformed into spam. Its presented in a way that looks palatable, but we know the substance is the same.
Everyone I've heard interviewed from the most pro-EU to the most anti-EU has talked of the need for reform, so the one uniting feature across all parties seems an acceptance that the EU needs to evolve, so do the pro-EU posters think Cameron has failed deliberately or through ineptitude?
If people are still going to vote remain when the EU has shown no ability to accommodate substantial reform, do they embrace an organisation that is institutionally incapable of constructive criticism?
handpaper said:
For me, the whole issue was decided by seven words, uttered by an EU official around the time of the first, illegal, Greek bailout :
"The facts were ahead of the law"*
Not only was there no mechanism in EU law for the transfer, it was specifically forbidden. An organisation that will ignore its own laws when they don't suit its immediate objectives is not one I want to be part of. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't exist at all.
Indeed, this is my primary objection to the whole project. They will break whatever laws they have to in order to get what they want, for our own good of course. Not something I want to be a part of."The facts were ahead of the law"*
Not only was there no mechanism in EU law for the transfer, it was specifically forbidden. An organisation that will ignore its own laws when they don't suit its immediate objectives is not one I want to be part of. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't exist at all.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff