So who wants to remain in the EU?

[technodup]

confused_buyer said:

You can still argue, but the chances of getting another vote any time soon are slim to none. Realistically, this is a once in a lifetime chance for the "leave" option.

If we stay in that'll be true.

If we choose the wrong option I suspect there'll be another one along in a minute.

[plasticpig]

TEKNOPUG said:

So if the Gov provided details of what they would do come BREXIT, but said there was no plan if we remained, you'd vote to leave?

Staying in is a known quantity. If there is a fundamental alteration to the current treatise that affect sovereignty then that will trigger a referendum vote. I don't know what the government will do if the vote is for exit as they aren't planning for it apparently. So the exit will be a total fk up because there has been no planning for it. I will vote to stay in as it's a known quantity,

[Cobnapint]

plasticpig said:

TEKNOPUG said:

So if the Gov provided details of what they would do come BREXIT, but said there was no plan if we remained, you'd vote to leave?

Staying in is a known quantity. If there is a fundamental alteration to the current treatise that affect sovereignty then that will trigger a referendum vote. I don't know what the government will do if the vote is for exit as they aren't planning for it apparently. So the exit will be a total fk up because there has been no planning for it. I will vote to stay in as it's a known quantity,

Yes, staying in is a known quantity, like standing on frozen lake during a thaw is a known quantity.

You don't 'really' believe the government when they say they have no contingency plans in the event of a Brexit do you...?

[danllama]

plasticpig said:

I will vote to stay in as it's a known quantity,

Is it? Would you not call it a fk up in its current state? The future in the EU looks pretty fking bleak to me, and that's assuming it doesn't get any worse. Which it will, most likely.

[Robertj21a]

Mario149 said:

On that note, I think that by the time we've got though this migrant crisis and all the rest of the crap that's been happening the last few years, we might see quite a different EU from what it is now. Countries are already acting unilaterally on borders etc. If there is a general feeling among member states that more flexibility and freedom are needed, this might result in some positive change. I daresay that if our referendum is a close run thing and we only just get a vote to stay, it might cause enough waves to initiate some change in the EU - it might wake up some people in the EU to the fact that they dodged a bullet, but only just. If it was a close run thing, it would only take a future Eurosceptic prime minister and another crisis to result in another referendum where we do end up leaving.

I have to say that you're clearly an optimistic sort of chap. My own view of '.....this migrant crisis and all the rest of the crap that's been happening......' is that we have many more years of problems to suffer (and seek solutions), particularly if we say in the EU. I really struggle to see that member states will pull together sufficiently quickly to avoid greater problems within some nations, and at key borders.

I don't want to drag all this out for another 5-10 years until such time as a future Eurosceptic P M announces another referendum to leave.

[plasticpig]

Cobnapint said:

Yes, staying in is a known quantity, like standing on frozen lake during a thaw is a known quantity.

You don't 'really' believe the government when they say they have no contingency plans in the event of a Brexit do you...?

Yes I do. Having plans is irrelevant anyway if there is no plan to publish what they will do on a exit vote.

[FiF]

Zod said:

FiF said:

Zod said:

Ayahuasca said:

Heard some innie bleating on Question Time that if we left the EU we could end up with much of the downside of membership, without any influence over the EU.

Leaving aside the dubious attractiveness of a 1 in 28 say in the EU, the killer argument is 'We could end up like Norway!'

I am sure that if Norway wanted to join the EU they could, so one would assume that their people value their independence more than a 1 in 28 say and good for them. Will 'innies' please stop saying 'we could end up like Norway'. I thank you.

i posted above about why the comparison with Norway is severely flawed.

And carefully fails to mention that shortly after I posted an explanation why your assertion that Norway couldn't influence legislation was also flawed. Too many people in transmit only mode, nothing new there then.

I never got round to addressing that.

FiF said:

Just to pick up on the first paragraph if I may. Norway has a very subtle and effective influence in the shaping of the new regulations right at the very start. True, it's influence is literally limited by the fact it doesn't have a final vote, but all the hard work has been done way back in formal EFTA consultative committees and ministerial level consultations.

Most of the problem legislation is EEA, not EFTA (the EEA being a subset of EFTA). Yes, there is a consulation process, but it is not given anything like the same time or attention as the process withing the EU and EEA-only Member States don't get a vote or the ability to lobby at the Council of Ministers.

Well we're going to have to differ, as would Norway and Iceland, claiming that member states and they have the opportunity to have direct expert input at the committee and working group stage which is where the real work is done. They seem very happy with the arrangement.

[wiggy001]

plasticpig said:

Yes I do. Having plans is irrelevant anyway if there is no plan to publish what they will do on a exit vote.

A pro-europe party is never going to publish what "out" looks like because it'll either:

1) be quite attractive and convince fence-sitters to vote out
2) be lies to further their aim of staying in Europe

If out did equal the land of milk and honey for the UK, do you honestly think Cameron would risk his own future on the gravy train by telling us all about it? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...

The naivety shown on this thread is truly shocking. To say we don't have the power and voice to survive and flourish outside of Europe, but also state that just the fact we've threatened to leave will be enough to create great reform in Europe is staggering beyond belief.

[FiF]

Mario149 said:

I'm personally not aware of anyone saying that, but I don't keep track exactly what people on here and on the news say. That said, I think it can be a valid position if you say

"It needs significant reform as it's a shambles, but even though seeing as we're going to get no significant reform, I'll vote to stay in as I think leaving might be even more of a shambles"

That's again fair enough, and certainly some of the exit strategies proposed, eg Redwood, would be an utter shambles and illegal to boot, but that's not true in every case.

Imo it's quite possible to make a measured controlled exit, the big problem though is managing ongoing expectations as things have to be handled steadily, not try and do everything at once. You can't unravel 40 years of entanglement overnight or even in two years. Therefore there are bound to be a number disappointed with rate of change. Can't please everyone.

[Zod]

FiF said:

Well we're going to have to differ, as would Norway and Iceland, claiming that member states and they have the opportunity to have direct expert input at the committee and working group stage which is where the real work is done. They seem very happy with the arrangement.

Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.

[Zod]

wiggy001 said:

A pro-europe party is never going to publish what "out" looks like because it'll either:

1) be quite attractive and convince fence-sitters to vote out
2) be lies to further their aim of staying in Europe

If out did equal the land of milk and honey for the UK, do you honestly think Cameron would risk his own future on the gravy train by telling us all about it? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...

The naivety shown on this thread is truly shocking. To say we don't have the power and voice to survive and flourish outside of Europe, but also state that just the fact we've threatened to leave will be enough to create great reform in Europe is staggering beyond belief.

What is it that you do, wiggy, that gives you the knowledge and experience to know that we will be better off out?

[wiggy001]

Zod said:

hat is it that you do, wiggy, that gives you the knowledge and experience to know that we will be better off out?

I don't think I've ever said it's a guarantee that we will be better off out. But we've had many many years of "in" and I don't like it so believe it's now time to give "out" a try.

It's like asking a battered wife whether she should leave her abusive husband; no guarantees she'll be better off but it is pretty likely that she will, especially given time.

Or to use another analogy: I, like most people I would assume, was financially worse off when I first left home. Was it the right thing to do financially in the long term? Yes. Was it the right thing to do morally in the short term? Of course. I'm much better off for it.

There is only 1 logical reason I can see for staying - you like how things are today in Europe and want to remain part of it.

There is only 1 financial reason for staying - you're scared of the unknown and don't believe Britain is strong enough to "move out".

There is no moral reason to stay.

I've yet to hear a single argument for staying in that isn't using some kind of "be afraid of the unknown" tactic, or a "it's been a corrupt mess for decades but it'll get better, promise" line.

[Zod]

If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:

You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?

[Scuffers]

Zod said:

If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:

You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?

or the other way to look at it..

Husband to wife - "you leave me and I will f**k you up bad"

now, that's a healthy, loving relationship.

[Zod]

Scuffers said:

Zod said:

If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:

You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?

or the other way to look at it..

Husband to wife - "you leave me and I will f**k you up bad"

now, that's a healthy, loving relationship.

We can keep up this game forever.

Leaving spouse to spouse being left: "I reckon I'll be better off without you. See you around." Who would want to be friends with the leaver?

[Scuffers]

Zod said:

e can keep up this game forever.

Leaving spouse to spouse being left: "I reckon I'll be better off without you. See you around." Who would want to be friends with the leaver?

grownups.

[Robertj21a]

Zod said:

If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:

You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?

I would probably get out and work hard at ensuring that I achieve more with my life than I would have done otherwise. It's too easy to just accept a poor relationship where life is full of frustration at being unable to achieve what you want.

Alternatively, your spouse [EU] agrees with many of your concerns and acts positively to help resolve them - this does not appear to be the EU stance.

[Zod]

Scuffers said:

Zod said:

We can keep up this game forever.

Leaving spouse to spouse being left: "I reckon I'll be better off without you. See you around." Who would want to be friends with the leaver?

grownups.

Well then the WTO, the US, Japan, China and Australia must not be grown-ups then.

World Trade Organisation Warns UK Against Leaving European Union

US Trade Representative says America has no interest in a trade deal with Britain alone, urging it to remain in the EU

Japan warns UK not to leave Europe

China’s Xi Jinping urges UK to stay in EU

Australia warns UK against EU exit

[Scuffers]

Rubbish,
Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall

[Zod]

Scuffers said:

Rubbish,
Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall

You've never been very good at this.