So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
Zod said:
Well then the WTO, the US, Japan, China and Australia must not be grown-ups then.
World Trade Organisation Warns UK Against Leaving European Union
US Trade Representative says America has no interest in a trade deal with Britain alone, urging it to remain in the EU
Japan warns UK not to leave Europe
China’s Xi Jinping urges UK to stay in EU
Australia warns UK against EU exit
Sorry, but particularly the USA one isnt credible. We are one of their biggest trade partners, and biggest foreign investors (and vice versa). They would be looking to get a deal (as would we) the second we came out of the EU.World Trade Organisation Warns UK Against Leaving European Union
US Trade Representative says America has no interest in a trade deal with Britain alone, urging it to remain in the EU
Japan warns UK not to leave Europe
China’s Xi Jinping urges UK to stay in EU
Australia warns UK against EU exit
Zod said:
If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:
You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
Ooo,can I have a go?You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Monday 8th February 18:24
NDA said:
We have managed our own affairs for a millennia - why do we need the EU to do this.
Yes to free trade, yes to controlling immigration, but no to political unity and no to a single currency.... On balance, out.
I'm not entirely sure that the international trade policies of the Normans or the Tudors would be that useful to us today. Yes to free trade, yes to controlling immigration, but no to political unity and no to a single currency.... On balance, out.
Zod said:
Scuffers said:
Rubbish,
Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall
You've never been very good at this.Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall
1) Huffington post? really?
2) the US trade rep that was (and probably still is) on the EU payroll along with his wife.
3) 3 years out of date, so far, Nissan, Toyota and Honda have all said makes no odds to their investment plans etc (you know, the people that actually run these companies, not more politically driven idiots)
4) Paywalled article, no idea what it's based on, but one can assume it's more crap, as China's balance of trade with the UK is massively one-sided.
5) Paywalled article again, but likely to be a quote from somebody irrelevant to real trade.
Scuffers said:
Zod said:
Scuffers said:
Rubbish,
Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall
You've never been very good at this.Rubbish,
Rubbish
Paywall,
Paywall
1) Huffington post? really?
2) the US trade rep that was (and probably still is) on the EU payroll along with his wife.
3) 3 years out of date, so far, Nissan, Toyota and Honda have all said makes no odds to their investment plans etc (you know, the people that actually run these companies, not more politically driven idiots)
4) Paywalled article, no idea what it's based on, but one can assume it's more crap, as China's balance of trade with the UK is massively one-sided.
5) Paywalled article again, but likely to be a quote from somebody irrelevant to real trade.
Funkycoldribena said:
Ooo,can I have a go?
The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Pretty accurate.The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Monday 8th February 18:24
Funkycoldribena said:
Zod said:
If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:
You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
Ooo,can I have a go?You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Monday 8th February 18:24
This domestic scenario is fairly irrelevant but amusing, so I'll have a go.
Wife not happy, various abusive reasons, says she wants to leave, husband says don't want you to go, I'll change, not a lot, but if you want to go it's your decision. Wife could go but eventually decides not. Husband now thinks he can get away with anything, doesn't change and gers worse. Wife is now really stuffed until it gets ridiculous and it all starts again.
Wife not happy, various abusive reasons, says she wants to leave, husband says don't want you to go, I'll change, not a lot, but if you want to go it's your decision. Wife could go but eventually decides not. Husband now thinks he can get away with anything, doesn't change and gers worse. Wife is now really stuffed until it gets ridiculous and it all starts again.
Scuffers said:
3) 3 years out of date, so far, Nissan, Toyota and Honda have all said makes no odds to their investment plans etc (you know, the people that actually run these companies, not more politically driven idiots)
I thought they'd all gone anyway? I'm sure they were all going to go and we'd be subsistence farming by now.I remember many, many experts saying it would happen if we didn't join the Euro. They weren't wrong, were they?
I have some serious reservations addressed before I decide:
1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
Zod said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Zod said:
If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:
You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
Ooo,can I have a go?You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Monday 8th February 18:24
confused_buyer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The main issue for me is that not a single UK citizen has been given the chance to vote for or against membership of the EU, and what many in the UK signed up to in joining the common market all those years ago, is definitely NOT what the EU is now.
It was (badly) promoted as `only' being a trading agreement/ bloc in those days, but now we have the monster of a federal Europe, controlling many aspects of our lives.
I am absolutely sure that if the UK population, had had described to them, what the common market was to morph into, most would have voted against joining.
The UK population is in, what is now the EU through, deception, lies, and concealment of the truth or aims of `some' of its early leaders.
Each UK citizen deserves the opportunity to vote on EU membership, albeit even now, few have a clear idea of what it actually is, or how it affects them.
Camoron has begun scaremongering by saying that the camps such as at Calais, will be on UK soil if we leave the EU.
Not sure how he comes to that view. All we need to do is turn illegal / economic migrants straight back around to the continent, saying that if they got into, and crossed other European countries illegally, then it is for those countries that allowed this to happen to deal with. (true refugees however will be welcomed)
That's all very well but it demonstrates the dangers of the referendum for Euroscepticism. If it is a "Remain", even a narrow one, then our membership of the EU as it is now will have democratic legitimacy and it will kill the argument for the lives of pretty much anyone reading this. It was (badly) promoted as `only' being a trading agreement/ bloc in those days, but now we have the monster of a federal Europe, controlling many aspects of our lives.
I am absolutely sure that if the UK population, had had described to them, what the common market was to morph into, most would have voted against joining.
The UK population is in, what is now the EU through, deception, lies, and concealment of the truth or aims of `some' of its early leaders.
Each UK citizen deserves the opportunity to vote on EU membership, albeit even now, few have a clear idea of what it actually is, or how it affects them.
Camoron has begun scaremongering by saying that the camps such as at Calais, will be on UK soil if we leave the EU.
Not sure how he comes to that view. All we need to do is turn illegal / economic migrants straight back around to the continent, saying that if they got into, and crossed other European countries illegally, then it is for those countries that allowed this to happen to deal with. (true refugees however will be welcomed)
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Monday 8th February 11:18
For 40 years people have been able to argue "this is wasn't we voted for" but, if the vote goes remain, the other side will be able to argue "this is what people voted for so please shut up".
Margaret Thatcher managed to address some of onerous conditions under which the UK was admitted to the `common market' only to have her hard fought for concessions given back by Bliar (for absolutely f*ck all) costing the UK taxpayer extra billions in EU fees since, and for as long as we remain members. The more I examine what has happened to the monster we now call the EU over the years since we joined the `Common Market' the more I am shocked that we joined at all, and that there is even any discussion about the need to get out asap.
So how long could the EU continue its " lottery win Spend Spend Spend" mentality if the UK does leave? Sure we apparently get a fair amount back out of our payments, but what would the actual cost be to the EU in monetary terms?
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Zod said:
I'm not entirely sure that the international trade policies of the Normans or the Tudors would be that useful to us today.
The Normans, no...but the Tudors would have been bloody marvelous...one can imagine the hilarity of CMD, Schultz, Junker, Tusk, Barroso, Van Rompuy, Merkel, Hollande and Sarkozy attempting to negotiate trade with Henry VIII and Queen Mary I.The Tower of London would have been kept very busy. As indeed it may be in the not too distant future...hopefully with CMD being publicly tried for treason.
P.s What have people to say about a corrupt, overbearing organization, which throws billions of Euros at a basket case country, which should NOT have been admitted in the first place, in order to keep its corrupt organization `appear' to be working, yet almost completely ignores, and dismisses the valid concerns about the way it is run, from a member country which is the second largest net contributor of funds into EU coffers.
A case of send in all your money, we want that, But we don't want you messing up our scam, by asking for much needed reforms in the way the thing is being run.
Do we really need to be part of an organization which is as corrupt and self serving as the EU?
A case of send in all your money, we want that, But we don't want you messing up our scam, by asking for much needed reforms in the way the thing is being run.
Do we really need to be part of an organization which is as corrupt and self serving as the EU?
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