So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
Tannedbaldhead said:
I have some serious reservations addressed before I decide:
1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
1)Define 'hassel'. If you have the relevant skills its just about applying for a work permit. There are plenty of Yanks/Aussies etc working in the EU, it would be the same for us.1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
2)The UK would have more money to spend on our own disadvantaged areas, so there is a good chance, look at Osborn's 'Northern Powerhouse' policy. But no-one can guarantee what future governments might do with it. That applies in or out of the EU. Imagine if Labour got in a Corbynomics takes over, the resulting mess would impoverish all, regardless of in or out of the EU.
3)I think being associated with the ongoing SNAFU in the Eurozone has had more impact with regards to share prices, it will depend on where your Dad has invested his money.
4)Yes. And Indian, Australian, etc etc. If the economy needs guest workers a points system will allow for them. (as the old system always did before the EU)
5)How could it? The EU is doing it to itself with one size fits all policies. That has nothing to do with if the UK is a member. Do you have any plausible mechanism for BREXIT to cause (say) Germany to become a basket case?
With these feet said:
So how long could the EU continue its " lottery win Spend Spend Spend" mentality if the UK does leave? Sure we apparently get a fair amount back out of our payments, but what would the actual cost be to the EU in monetary terms?
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Not only that, but the EU sells more to the UK than it buys from us. Any trade restrictions constriction they try to place on UK goods going into the EU will be matched by equivalent restrictions on goods coming in from the EU. That is going to hurt the EU far more than it will hurt the UK. And of course there are many other countries around the would that the UK can trade with......Just like it used to do!
s2art said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
How could it? The EU is doing it to itself with one size fits all policies. That has nothing to do with if the UK is a member. Do you have any plausible mechanism for BREXIT to cause (say) Germany to become a basket case?So, the plus points of the EU are:
o it is completely undemocratic and unaccountable
o it is morally and financially corrupt
o it costs us a fortune
o it stated main aim is to get ever more so
and the downsides of leaving are
o be afraid
I'm still undecided. How long do I have to choose?
o it is completely undemocratic and unaccountable
o it is morally and financially corrupt
o it costs us a fortune
o it stated main aim is to get ever more so
and the downsides of leaving are
o be afraid
I'm still undecided. How long do I have to choose?
Pan Pan Pan said:
With these feet said:
So how long could the EU continue its " lottery win Spend Spend Spend" mentality if the UK does leave? Sure we apparently get a fair amount back out of our payments, but what would the actual cost be to the EU in monetary terms?
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Im not suggesting the UK holds the place together, but I would assume we are one of the 5 biggest contributors to the pot and any loss of income is going to hurt them badly. Perhaps justifying others to hold referendums in their countries.
Not only that, but the EU sells more to the UK than it buys from us. Any trade restrictions constriction they try to place on UK goods going into the EU will be matched by equivalent restrictions on goods coming in from the EU. That is going to hurt the EU far more than it will hurt the UK. And of course there are many other countries around the would that the UK can trade with......Just like it used to do!
You'd have though with all these austerity measures, the first thing to do would be quit the things that aren't necessary. Obviously CMD will be after a cushy little number in Brussels once he exits No.10. Brexit would no doubt scupper any chances of a "feet up cock out" existence for him....
s2art said:
The EU is doing it to itself with one size fits all policies.
My biggest problem with the EU and with the Euro in particular.I remember when I was living in Ireland there were serious concerns about the Irish economy overheating. What we needed (and if I remember correctly Spain was in the same boat at the time) was much higher interest rates. It never happened as Germany needed lower interest rates to finance and deal with the economic consequences of East and West German re-unification. Worse still was this was at a time when what I regarded as the two main must-have cars of Irish "look at me I'm doing well" types swapped from the Mitsubishi Gallant and Peugeot 505 GTI (keeping things PH, there was a bloody good car) to the BMW 3 Series and Audi A4. The cheap money allowed Ireland to suck up German premium brand cars like a city banker hoovering cocaine of a cistern.
It wasn't one size suits all. It was one size suits Germany.
s2art said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
I have some serious reservations addressed before I decide:
1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
1)Define 'hassel'. If you have the relevant skills its just about applying for a work permit. There are plenty of Yanks/Aussies etc working in the EU, it would be the same for us.1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
2)The UK would have more money to spend on our own disadvantaged areas, so there is a good chance, look at Osborn's 'Northern Powerhouse' policy. But no-one can guarantee what future governments might do with it. That applies in or out of the EU. Imagine if Labour got in a Corbynomics takes over, the resulting mess would impoverish all, regardless of in or out of the EU.
3)I think being associated with the ongoing SNAFU in the Eurozone has had more impact with regards to share prices, it will depend on where your Dad has invested his money.
4)Yes. And Indian, Australian, etc etc. If the economy needs guest workers a points system will allow for them. (as the old system always did before the EU)
5)How could it? The EU is doing it to itself with one size fits all policies. That has nothing to do with if the UK is a member. Do you have any plausible mechanism for BREXIT to cause (say) Germany to become a basket case?
Meh. Look up Flexcit and read it.
Is the debate at the level of will there be Italian waiters? They're probably from Clerkenwell anyway. Jesus wept.
FiF said:
s2art said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
I have some serious reservations addressed before I decide:
1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
1)Define 'hassel'. If you have the relevant skills its just about applying for a work permit. There are plenty of Yanks/Aussies etc working in the EU, it would be the same for us.1. In the past I have worked in the Irish Republic, my brother has worked in Germany and the Netherlands and my sister still works in Italy. If we were to leave the EU can you guarantee that we would still have easy hassle free access to EU labour markets.
2. I have lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Co Durham and Cumbria at different points in my life. I've chosen to do so as when I worked in London and lived in Berkshire I would have had to earn £200,000pa to afford the life style, my houses and cars I enjoyed when I lived in poorer more rural regions. These sort of areas (along with Cornwall and Wales) have done and are doing well from EU rural funding, development area funding and agricultural subsidies. If we left the EU can you guarantee the UK government would maintain similar levels of support for the regions and not do something daft like blowing on tax cuts which would benefit an already wealthy South East.
3. My dad is 79. Rather than a pension he derives income from investment by means of an income draw-down scheme. To date he has done well. If markets are shaken it could effect his income drastically. If the UK leaves the EU can you guarantee there will not be a negative impact on stocks and share prices that will reduce my Father's income.
4. My local Italian restaurant employs Italian waiters and waitresses. My family is Italian. I can speak Italian and these factors combine to make my meals more of an experience. Can you guarantee my restaurant will have access to Italian staff?
5. Can you guarantee that should we leave Europe we bugger the place up and end up with an economic basket case on our doorstep because if there is that will impact on us very badly.
If not I vote to stay.
2)The UK would have more money to spend on our own disadvantaged areas, so there is a good chance, look at Osborn's 'Northern Powerhouse' policy. But no-one can guarantee what future governments might do with it. That applies in or out of the EU. Imagine if Labour got in a Corbynomics takes over, the resulting mess would impoverish all, regardless of in or out of the EU.
3)I think being associated with the ongoing SNAFU in the Eurozone has had more impact with regards to share prices, it will depend on where your Dad has invested his money.
4)Yes. And Indian, Australian, etc etc. If the economy needs guest workers a points system will allow for them. (as the old system always did before the EU)
5)How could it? The EU is doing it to itself with one size fits all policies. That has nothing to do with if the UK is a member. Do you have any plausible mechanism for BREXIT to cause (say) Germany to become a basket case?
Meh. Look up Flexcit and read it.
Is the debate at the level of will there be Italian waiters? They're probably from Clerkenwell anyway. Jesus wept.
t creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling. Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Monday 8th February 20:32
Tannedbaldhead said:
Fair enough. Mentioning Italian waiters is flippant. But more seriously when the UK is short of labour foreign workers are a very handy resource. There are a lot of coffee shops, laundries, care homes, factories, food processing plants and, in particular, farmers who, without access to EU labour, are going to be up st creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling.
So what? This is a Straw Man argument.t creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling. Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Monday 8th February 20:32
Nobody is saying an independent UK will not let in foreign workers. Of course we will.
Ayahuasca said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Fair enough. Mentioning Italian waiters is flippant. But more seriously when the UK is short of labour foreign workers are a very handy resource. There are a lot of coffee shops, laundries, care homes, factories, food processing plants and, in particular, farmers who, without access to EU labour, are going to be up st creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling.
So what? This is a Straw Man argument.t creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling. Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Monday 8th February 20:32
Nobody is saying an independent UK will not let in foreign workers. Of course we will.
Zod said:
Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.
This argument is utter nonsense.We cannot even influence most of our own laws.
We only have one twenty-eighth of a vote in the EU.
If we leave, we will take full control of our own affairs, and we will have a full vote on all international issues.
We will be free to negotiate trade deals with the growing economies of India and China. We cannot do this while we have abrogated our powers to Brussels.
We could do trade deals with English speaking countries like Australia and New Zealand. This would have the added advantage of a shared culture. Doing business is easier if you speak the same language and share the same culture.
European economies are shrinking. The rest of the world is growing.
Let's vote for growth and prosperity.
Vote Leave.
don4l said:
Zod said:
Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.
This argument is utter nonsense.We cannot even influence most of our own laws.
We only have one twenty-eighth of a vote in the EU.
If we leave, we will take full control of our own affairs, and we will have a full vote on all international issues.
We will be free to negotiate trade deals with the growing economies of India and China. We cannot do this while we have abrogated our powers to Brussels.
We could do trade deals with English speaking countries like Australia and New Zealand. This would have the added advantage of a shared culture. Doing business is easier if you speak the same language and share the same culture.
European economies are shrinking. The rest of the world is growing.
Let's vote for growth and prosperity.
Vote Leave.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Fair enough. Mentioning Italian waiters is flippant. But more seriously when the UK is short of labour foreign workers are a very handy resource. There are a lot of coffee shops, laundries, care homes, factories, food processing plants and, in particular, farmers who, without access to EU labour, are going to be up st creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling.
Agreed, we need a level of immigration but we also would like ultimately to control who for the skills we need, at all levels. But to just change the rules at a stroke would create all sorts of issues, so basically that ain't going to happen, per Flexcit, freedom of movement rules wouldn't end any time soon. Whatever the civil service come up with figuring out what to do in the event of a leave vote, it will look very much like the early stages of Flexcit. Why? Because when you look at the realities there isn't any other way to do it properly and sensibly.t creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling. Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Monday 8th February 20:32
Funkycoldribena said:
Zod said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Zod said:
If you want to use domestic analogies, I'll do the same:
You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
Ooo,can I have a go?You have been married for a long time, feel taken for granted, are a bit bored and fancy trying your chances on your own. All your friends tell you that you and your spouse are better together, that the grass is not greener, that they value you together and that they will find it more difficult to deal with you if you walk out. You also worry that your spouse will make the divorce difficult because she or he will be angry. Do you leave your spouse and take those risks, suspecting that you face at least several tough years before things might start to look up, or do you try to work out your relationship, given that life isn't actually that bad, day to day?
The wife spends 55 quid a week on gym membership but shes still fat as a house because most of the equipment is being taken up by other people. Then husband gets nice big bonus at work and instead of paying off debts the wife goes out whilst hes earning more and spends 17k on a new car and she might buy another if he gets a second bonus,then she wants to take in her 3 sisters because they've all been having a bad time lately,none of them work but the wife will cover the costs.After a while their husbands join them because they're getting free board and lodgings but its ok,the mans wife will cover it from the husbands bank account.Would you stay with the wife if she said shes not changing anything no matter what?
Oh and by the way shes in charge and wont let the husband see any bank statements or balances and its been like that for 20 odd years.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Monday 8th February 18:24
don4l said:
Zod said:
Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.
This argument is utter nonsenseZod said:
don4l said:
Zod said:
Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.
This argument is utter nonsenseZod said:
don4l said:
Zod said:
Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.
This argument is utter nonsenseThe "secret oilfield discovery that the tories were trying to hide" is a case in point. That led to some really loony behaviour.
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