So who wants to remain in the EU?

[davepoth]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Fair enough. Mentioning Italian waiters is flippant. But more seriously when the UK is short of labour foreign workers are a very handy resource. There are a lot of coffee shops, laundries, care homes, factories, food processing plants and, in particular, farmers who, without access to EU labour, are going to be up st creek with a paddle but no-one to do the paddling.

Plenty of people to do paddling - it's just that they won't all be from the EU any more.

[CrutyRammers]

FredClogs said:

The suggestion that the EU isn't democratic because the Commissionaires aren't elected by the electorate is daft, you might as well say the UK isn't democratic because the cabinet members,or civil service heads aren't elected or the judiciary aren't elected or the house of lords isn't elected.

The UK isn't democratic, not by a long shot. A vote every 4 or 5 years for one of two or three parties who think the same on many issues is not democracy. But I see no reason to make it worse by moving power even further away from the people, as the EU does.

[don4l]

Zod said:

don4l said:

Zod said:

Believe me, their influence is very limited on the stuff that I see.

This argument is utter nonsense

If you had any actual knowledge or experience to back up that statement, it might be credible. Instead, it is based on emotion and what you have read from sources that appeal to your prejudices.

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

[FredClogs]

don4l said:

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

You mean you'd make more money if your staff and customers were forced to suck up lead all day and the local canal was littered with CFCs, PCBs and leaking batteries... Seriously? What the blithering fk?

[don4l]

FredClogs said:

don4l said:

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

You mean you'd make more money if your staff and customers were forced to suck up lead all day and the local canal was littered with CFCs, PCBs and leaking batteries... Seriously? What the blithering fk?

What on Earth are you smoking?

The WEEE regulations force us to register with th Environment agency at a cost of £490 a year. We also have to pay DHL £490pa.

Not a single customer has ever sent us back anything for disposal in the last 23 years.

So, we pay out £980 a year for absolutely nothing.

Thickoes like you think that is reasonable.

[FredClogs]

don4l said:

FredClogs said:

don4l said:

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

You mean you'd make more money if your staff and customers were forced to suck up lead all day and the local canal was littered with CFCs, PCBs and leaking batteries... Seriously? What the blithering fk?

What on Earth are you smoking?

The WEEE regulations force us to register with th Environment agency at a cost of £490 a year. We also have to pay DHL £490pa.

Not a single customer has ever sent us back anything for disposal in the last 23 years.

So, we pay out £980 a year for absolutely nothing.

Thickoes like you think that is reasonable.

Unbelievable.

It's entirely reasonable that companies that produce goods which have harmful effects to the environment and health have to pay something towards the monitoring and control there of. I work in electronics, I don't run a company with your lofty operating costs but I think if I ever did become as big a time Charlie as you giving a grand a year to the folks that police the disposal of Coshh would be the least of my worries.

[davepoth]

FredClogs said:

Unbelievable.

It's entirely reasonable that companies that produce goods which have harmful effects to the environment and health have to pay something towards the monitoring and control there of. I work in electronics, I don't run a company with your lofty operating costs but I think if I ever did become as big a time Charlie as you giving a grand a year to the folks that police the disposal of Coshh would be the least of my worries.

Wow, way to win an argument there.

It's a valid point - a thousand pounds is a lot of money to someone starting up a business or running a small one, especially if the only thing you're doing is a box-ticking exercise. Obviously we do need to be protected from environmental nasties, but not in quite such a bureaucratic way.

[grumbledoak]

So, what has the EU ever done for us? I mean really done for us, not just the usual politicians trick of trying to take the credit for anything good that has happened since WWII.

For our net £33M per day we should have something to show for it. If this is all good value for money then a list of what we get should be easy. For that amount of money we should have something Google could drive it's camera cars around and make us an online virtual tour! It would be stupid to pay them all that money, plus £1.7Bn shakedowns at will, for nothing.

[PRTVR]

grumbledoak said:

So, what has the EU ever done for us? I mean really done for us, not just the usual politicians trick of trying to take the credit for anything good that has happened since WWII.

For our net £33M per day we should have something to show for it. If this is all good value for money then a list of what we get should be easy. For that amount of money we should have something Google could drive it's camera cars around and make us an online virtual tour! It would be stupid to pay them all that money, plus £1.7Bn shakedowns at will, for nothing.

You have to go to Spain, apparently we paid for some wonderful roads.

[FiF]

PRTVR said:

grumbledoak said:

So, what has the EU ever done for us? I mean really done for us, not just the usual politicians trick of trying to take the credit for anything good that has happened since WWII.

For our net £33M per day we should have something to show for it. If this is all good value for money then a list of what we get should be easy. For that amount of money we should have something Google could drive it's camera cars around and make us an online virtual tour! It would be stupid to pay them all that money, plus £1.7Bn shakedowns at will, for nothing.

You have to go to Spain, apparently we paid for some wonderful roads.

Plus why are our roads in such a state?

[Scuffers]

PRTVR said:

grumbledoak said:

So, what has the EU ever done for us? I mean really done for us, not just the usual politicians trick of trying to take the credit for anything good that has happened since WWII.

For our net £33M per day we should have something to show for it. If this is all good value for money then a list of what we get should be easy. For that amount of money we should have something Google could drive it's camera cars around and make us an online virtual tour! It would be stupid to pay them all that money, plus £1.7Bn shakedowns at will, for nothing.

You have to go to Spain, apparently we paid for some wonderful roads.

not forgetting Ciudad Real airport, cost €1.1bn to build, just sold for €10,000

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33578949

[NDA]

Zod said:

NDA said:

We have managed our own affairs for a millennia - why do we need the EU to do this.

Yes to free trade, yes to controlling immigration, but no to political unity and no to a single currency.... On balance, out.

I'm not entirely sure that the international trade policies of the Normans or the Tudors would be that useful to us today.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear.

Yes to free trade - no to political union.

We have managed without political union for a very long time, we don't need it nor do we want it.

[Guybrush]

'Migrants are pushing NHS to breaking point': Top cancer doctor warns health tourists are bleeding hospitals dry with demand for treatment.

Professor Angus Dalgleish is preparing speech speaking out against EU.
Says British hospitals are struggling to cope with demand from refugees.
Will insist this considerable expense partly explains NHS's £3billion deficit.

The NHS has been left 'on its knees' by uncontrolled migration from the EU, a leading cancer expert will warn tomorrow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3438040/To...

[irocfan]

FredClogs said:

don4l said:

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

You mean you'd make more money if your staff and customers were forced to suck up lead all day and the local canal was littered with CFCs, PCBs and leaking batteries... Seriously? What the blithering fk?

so you're trying to say in your usual clumsy way that if we weren't in the EU we'd be look to pollute like there was no tomorrow? A return to pea-soupers perhaps?

[irocfan]

steveT350C said:

Zod said:

emotion

angry?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cus...

oh that's ok, it was just rich people they could afford it

[Scuffers]

irocfan said:

so you're trying to say in your usual clumsy way that if we weren't in the EU we'd be look to pollute like there was no tomorrow? A return to pea-soupers perhaps?

he really is stupid... seems to be on the wrong side of everything.

Interestingly, we have not had smog in the UK since ~1953.

[DavidJG]

Guybrush said:

'Migrants are pushing NHS to breaking point': Top cancer doctor warns health tourists are bleeding hospitals dry with demand for treatment.

Professor Angus Dalgleish is preparing speech speaking out against EU.
Says British hospitals are struggling to cope with demand from refugees.
Will insist this considerable expense partly explains NHS's £3billion deficit.

The NHS has been left 'on its knees' by uncontrolled migration from the EU, a leading cancer expert will warn tomorrow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3438040/To...

Hmmmm. Last time I looked, large elements of the NHS were staffed by migrants. In some areas, we'd struggle to run the NHS without them.

An article from the Daily Fail hardly counts as the most trustworthy place to find facts.

In terms of migration, we have to consider two areas - firstly, people who come to the UK from within the EU to work. Errr, is this such a bad thing? People who contribute to our economy, pay taxes, add something to our society? Perhaps they could even be responsible for elements of economic growth? Is this such a bad thing? Secondly, we have the non-EU refugee issue. This is a very real issue. I suspect that were the UK to leave the EU, these people would attempt to sail to the UK in the false belief that it's better here than in mainland Europe. However, we have to consider that most of these are human beings fleeing very real persecution. As part of the developed world maybe, just maybe, we should think about doing something to help them rather than simply complaining about all the bl**dy foreigners who want to come here and scrounge off the state? Of course, we need some form of screening programme as not all of the migrants from the middle east / north Africa are entirely what they seem to be but the percentage of 'bad' ones is quite small.

In Economic terms: I've said it before, I'll say it again: no-one truly knows what will happen to the UK if we vote to leave. What we can predict is that it's unlikely to be good. We'd effectively have to start from zero in terms of trade - almost all of our trade agreements and partnerships are through the EU. We won't be able to build new agreements overnight - it can take years of negotiation. Short term economic recession is almost certain, and the recovery time is unknown, but best case would be around 5 years of economic turmoil, with at least another 5 years to recover to where we are now. Politically, Scotland would have a strong case for a new independence vote, and would probably leave the UK to join up with the EU. This would weaken the UK further, and deepen a recession that was started by Brexit.

In short - if you don't mind a recession, if you don't mind watching unemployment soaring, if you think people who come here to work are a bad thing, then by all means vote to leave. But, if the UK leaves the EU then I and many others like me who employ people in areas that depend on the EU may just take ourselves, our money, and our jobs out of the UK.

[Mario149]

TEKNOPUG said:

When attempting to make a forecast, it's generally accepted that you look at the historical evidence, what has gone before, similar situations and how they played out. The clues to the future are all written in history....or history repeats itself if you prefer. Then study current facts and evidence, comparing to the facts of the past that you have already acknowledged and try to forecast a trend, based upon all available evidence.

Please do share with us your methodology. I'd rather back an educated guess over wishful thinking.

Then I refer you to one of my other posts. If it was really so bad, structurally never going to work and clearly down the pan, we'd be out already and wouldn't be having this conversation. It is, as you say, a best guess on our part. You can forecast how you want, but we've always had a lot of "the end is nigh", and so far it never has been.

[FredClogs]

irocfan said:

FredClogs said:

don4l said:

No. My feelings are not based on emotion. They are based on experience.

You are mind-bogglingly patronising.

I have run my own business since 1992. I estimate that 5% of my operating costs are due to mindless EU regulation. (WEEE, RoHS etc)

I would make more profit, and employ more people, if we left the EU.

You mean you'd make more money if your staff and customers were forced to suck up lead all day and the local canal was littered with CFCs, PCBs and leaking batteries... Seriously? What the blithering fk?

so you're trying to say in your usual clumsy way that if we weren't in the EU we'd be look to pollute like there was no tomorrow? A return to pea-soupers perhaps?

No not at all, but be honest, left to their own devices without rules and regulation people tend towards chaos, it's not without precedence that companies and individuals will litter and pollute the environment or at least risk that to increase profit or perhaps they're just ignorant of the effects. I don't think anyone is arguing that Rohs and WEEE regulations aren't a good idea, Don4l's argument was that he begrudges the cost involved.

[Mario149]

Robertj21a said:

I have to say that you're clearly an optimistic sort of chap.

I like to think so

Robertj21a said:

My own view of '.....this migrant crisis and all the rest of the crap that's been happening......' is that we have many more years of problems to suffer (and seek solutions), particularly if we say in the EU. I really struggle to see that member states will pull together sufficiently quickly to avoid greater problems within some nations, and at key borders.

I don't want to drag all this out for another 5-10 years until such time as a future Eurosceptic P M announces another referendum to leave.

Ref refugees etc, it may take some years to resolve, but we have to remember that by and large they'd rather live in their own country in their previous lives if it was safe to be there, esp if you're going to have limited/no access to the benefit money of that country. So, if the international community can sort Syria out and roll back ISIS, a lot of the refugee problem will fix itself as people will want to go back home. Just because we have lots of people here now, or trying to get here, doesn't mean we will in a few years time.