So who wants to remain in the EU?

[CrutyRammers]

FredClogs said:

No more than any other nationality, but the reality of human behaviour is that in the absence of good leadership, regulations and the rule of law people tend toward selfishness and greed, and corporate business even more so.

The real question I have is not how can we cut the regulation on British business but how can we get the same level of protection afforded to the people and environment of places like China, Eastern Europe and the Nigerian Delta? Wider democratic controlling bodies such as the EU is one way of doing it, ethical colonialism might be another way but just appealing to people to do the right thing is bound to fail.

No, look, you can keep saying "democratic" and "EU" in the same sentence, but it just isn't. And your question makes no sense, as per usual. But the idea which you seem to be proposing, that without the EU, the UK government would deregulate industry and allow things to degenerate to 3rd world squalor, is laughable.

[v8250]

s2art said:

We have been fracking in the mainland UK (England mainly) for something like 40-50 years, with no big problems. And the technology is vastly better now. Remember that gas is not just an energy source but also feedstock for a variety of products. I have no problem with designing better systems with greater efficiency, but that can only provide a relatively small portion of our energy needs. Note that windpower causes reduced efficiency for the fossil power source. Nuclear could have been the answer, but we have blown that one. The cost of power from the proposed Hinkley point is just ridiculous.

Agreed. But the best for the environment in me is at permanent odds with conventional energy provision. And don't get me started with Hinkley Point, it's a fking disaster in the waiting. The British Govt giving away this power station to EDF and the Chinese, yet another primary UK energy asset owned by and nigh on given to foreign governments...not to mention the spiraling costs...it's NHS PFI but on a global scale and makes my piss boil[!]. I was with with some of the HP controls engineers last year, guys who've been there since the 1970's, over pints of fine North Somerset beer the issues under discussion were truly shocking...especially the lack of technical control, functional safety test and eventual handover. I'd better stop there before GCHQ Paris & Beijing Depts come knocking on the door.

[FredClogs]

Scuffers said:

don4l said:

The RoHS directive simply exported jobs, mainly to China.

I know of 3 major electronics manufacturers that shut up shop and moved production to China rather than redesign thousands of boards, cost well over 20,000 jobs all told.

This is pure bks.

You do realise that RoHS applies to the sale of manufactured items, so unless these manufacturers had no desire to sell into the EU or infact the US (as EWRA basically brought the US into line with Rohs), the act of moving manufacture to China wouldn't have helped in the slightest from a Rohs perspective.

No corporates or anyone else ever packed up and left the UK because of Rohs, anyone tells you otherwise and they're just using a poor excuse.

Like the millennium bug there were quite a few who did ok of talking a lot of old ste about the possible reliability issues of lead free solder, (Rohs is about more than lead in solder but nevermind) I've seen PCBs fail due to dendrite growth but then agaon I've seen far more fail for much more mundane reasons... The vast majority of PCBs that passed my desk to become Rohs compliant were BOM changes and little else, some component obsolescence was accelerated but by and large the market reacted very well to supplying Rohs compatible replacements. I'm afraid to have to say it but like the chap said above, anyone forced out of business by Rohs didn't have a very good business, SMT is an expensive and capital hungry process, maybe Rosh forced the need for new ovens or wave soldering equipment (but probably not) maybe a PCB outline changed and forced a major redesign of a whole product - but in that case there was generally enough time before the regulations came in for the benefits of a redesign or capital expenditure to be well considered. Electronics manufacture and PCB design are not industries where you can hang about doing the same thing for 25 years anyway, unless you're supplying into defence, aero or space projects and they were exempt from Rohs...

There is also a lot of very good engineering reasons why lead free solder is preferred anyhow, Rohs or no Rohs.

[Scuffers]

so, Plessey, Philips, LG, etc. did not close all their production sites in the UK and leave then?

and in todays papers:

Britain's trade to EU slumps: Major boost for the 'Leave' campaign as our exports outside Europe continue to soar

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439693/Br...

[Guybrush]

Scuffers said:

so, Plessey, Philips, LG, etc. did not close all their production sites in the UK and leave then?

and in todays papers:

Britain's trade to EU slumps: Major boost for the 'Leave' campaign as our exports outside Europe continue to soar

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439693/Br...

As the EU wealth distribution scheme continues, Bosnia / Herzegovina next with probably a million plus ill educated people wanting to move to our more successful western societies, the EU generally will continue to get poorer. Outside the EU is where it's at from now.

[DavidJG]

Scuffers said:

DavidJG said:

Hmmmm. Last time I looked, large elements of the NHS were staffed by migrants. In some areas, we'd struggle to run the NHS without them.

can't let that one go unchallenged.

Yes, there are a lot of migrants working in the NHS, BUT, the VAST MAJORITY are not from the EU, they are from Pakistan, India, Asia, etc.

so, want to try that one again?

Edited by Scuffers on Tuesday 9th February 18:04

Hmmmm, I know several Consultants from Romania & Poland working locally to me, and numerous others working in the South East.

I have to say I'm staggered at the level of hatred for anyone not seen as 'English' being exhibited on this and other PH threads. I trust that if 'Scuffers' and the other haters require medical care, they will refuse it unless the doctor is not an immigrant?

[Scuffers]

DavidJG said:

Hmmmm, I know several Consultants from Romania & Poland working locally to me, and numerous others working in the South East.

I have to say I'm staggered at the level of hatred for anyone not seen as 'English' being exhibited on this and other PH threads. I trust that if 'Scuffers' and the other haters require medical care, they will refuse it unless the doctor is not an immigrant?

FFS, get a grip man!

it's not hatred, I have no problem with migrants per say, it;s about numbers and control.

Back to the NHS, look it up yourself, you are the one claiming it's full of EU migrants, well, the simple facts do not show that, the VAST majority of migrant workers in the NHS are NON-EU nationals, and has been for decades.

Unlike most people, I have actually worked overseas a lot, including Poland (before they joined the EU), I have no issues with Poles (I still have good friends over there), I am not some xenophobic little englander as you seem to be implying.

What I want to see is HONESTY in the debate, not bullst scaremongering and blatantly false 'facts'

[wiggy001]

DavidJG said:

Scuffers said:

DavidJG said:

Hmmmm. Last time I looked, large elements of the NHS were staffed by migrants. In some areas, we'd struggle to run the NHS without them.

can't let that one go unchallenged.

Yes, there are a lot of migrants working in the NHS, BUT, the VAST MAJORITY are not from the EU, they are from Pakistan, India, Asia, etc.

so, want to try that one again?

Edited by Scuffers on Tuesday 9th February 18:04

Hmmmm, I know several Consultants from Romania & Poland working locally to me, and numerous others working in the South East.

I have to say I'm staggered at the level of hatred for anyone not seen as 'English' being exhibited on this and other PH threads. I trust that if 'Scuffers' and the other haters require medical care, they will refuse it unless the doctor is not an immigrant?

The usual cheap shot from those that have run out of arguments. Please stop it, it makes you look silly.

[DavidJG]

Scuffers said:

DavidJG said:

Hmmmm, I know several Consultants from Romania & Poland working locally to me, and numerous others working in the South East.

I have to say I'm staggered at the level of hatred for anyone not seen as 'English' being exhibited on this and other PH threads. I trust that if 'Scuffers' and the other haters require medical care, they will refuse it unless the doctor is not an immigrant?

FFS, get a grip man!

it's not hatred, I have no problem with migrants per say, it;s about numbers and control.

Back to the NHS, look it up yourself, you are the one claiming it's full of EU migrants, well, the simple facts do not show that, the VAST majority of migrant workers in the NHS are NON-EU nationals, and has been for decades.

Unlike most people, I have actually worked overseas a lot, including Poland (before they joined the EU), I have no issues with Poles (I still have good friends over there), I am not some xenophobic little englander as you seem to be implying.

What I want to see is HONESTY in the debate, not bullst scaremongering and blatantly false 'facts'

I've also worked overseas - I spend more time outside the UK than in. I think it's highly likely that if the UK leaves the EU I'll spend 100% of my time outside the UK. Oh, and my wife works in the NHS so I'd say I may have some knowledge of who's working within our local trust Lots of her friends work in other trusts, so we get quite a good understanding of who's there also.

In terms of hatred - maybe not you personally, but go take a good long read of the 'Migrant Crisis, what next.' thread. If hoping that people drown on homemade rafts isn't hatred (as suggested by some contributors to that thread), then I really don't know what is.

Edited by DavidJG on Wednesday 10th February 09:47

[irocfan]

Scuffers said:

What I want to see is HONESTY in the debate, not bullst scaremongering and blatantly false 'facts'

in fact have another few... Honest in this debate

[FredClogs]

irocfan said:

in fact have another few... Honest in this debate

Indeed, congrats on your 10,000 post btw!

[superlightr]

So is it our Asylum rules that are causing us the issues? or the EU rules causing the issues? - ie we have to process the claim and then deport but cant deport I we dont know where they came from? Whats stopping the UK changing the laws on Asylum?

How about the UK suspend ALL asylum claims in the UK for say 24 months. People can still claim asylum in our overseas embassy's but they are processed there, they stay in that local area ie France/Germany etc The UK can them do a decent job of processing each claim, if the back log increases then it increases and only true asylum seekers will be allowed in. If they fail well they are already in a safe country.

[irocfan]

FredClogs said:

irocfan said:

in fact have another few... Honest in this debate

Indeed, congrats on your 10,000 post btw!

thanks Mind you what a thing to waste #10,000 on it should've been about hairy chested V8s!!

[plasticpig]

Guybrush said:

As the EU wealth distribution scheme continues, Bosnia / Herzegovina next with probably a million plus ill educated people wanting to move to our more successful western societies, the EU generally will continue to get poorer. Outside the EU is where it's at from now.

Stupid comment. Most Eastern European countries score far better in education than the UK does in the OECD stats.

[irocfan]

plasticpig said:

Guybrush said:

As the EU wealth distribution scheme continues, Bosnia / Herzegovina next with probably a million plus ill educated people wanting to move to our more successful western societies, the EU generally will continue to get poorer. Outside the EU is where it's at from now.

Stupid comment. Most Eastern European countries score far better in education than the UK does in the OECD stats.

mind you going by the arguments some people use for leaving/staying you could argue that when the UK joined the EU we had one of the best (if not the best) education systems in the world - now look at us. It's all the EU's fault!!!

[Mario149]

Axionknight said:

Perhaps the EU should consider that very point before offering the UK a few derisory "reforms" that amount to absolutely squat.

Perhaps they should yes

[Mario149]

KrissKross said:

You walk into many doctors or NHS areas these days and its full of sick migrants being looked after by migrants.

I live in London and am still yet to see this. The NHS staff have a much higher percentage of immigrants than the patients

[DavidJG]

Mario149 said:

KrissKross said:

You walk into many doctors or NHS areas these days and its full of sick migrants being looked after by migrants.

I live in London and am still yet to see this. The NHS staff have a much higher percentage of immigrants than the patients

Same in most places, and where there are large numbers of migrants being treated by the NHS they're generally non-EU.

However, that's not the picture that the Daily Fail & The Sun like to present to people, therefore it's not what the people who read those papers believe.

[Mario149]

AJS- said:

It seems like nobody really *wants* to be in the EU.

I do. The idea of European countries all clubbing together to look out for each other appeals to me on a fundamental level because of my heritage - I think of the UK as my country, but Europe as my "bigger" country. Becoming more unified in the future (but at a pace people are happy with) seems like progress, whereas every country just looking out for themselves and trying to go their own way seems like going back in time and regressing. Hell, why don't we just go back to having a Europe of 100s of Duchies, Kingdoms and City States just with elected leaders.

And I know that I am far more influential to my well being and that of my family's based on my individual actions and choices than whether or not we're in the EU. So there's a decent chance even the philosophical argument of the EU is enough for me.

[DavidJG]

Mario149 said:

I think of the UK as my country, but Europe as my "bigger" country. Becoming more unified in the future (but at a pace people are happy with) seems like progress, whereas every country just looking out for themselves and trying to go their own way seems like going back in time and regressing. Hell, why don't we just go back to having a Europe of 100s of Duchies, Kingdoms and City States just with elected leaders.

This. Although I was born in the UK, I now see myself as more European than British. I prefer European culture - the UK could learn a lot from French & Italian cultures if we choose to. Unfortunately, as we can see from a number of posters on this and other threads, the average Brit considers that the EU has nothing to offer and prefers to focus on the perceived negatives of political union.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a closer political union, with the UK actively involved in the leadership of that political union, rather than standing back and complaining that we don't like it very much.