So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
DavidJG said:
I spend more time outside the UK than in. I think it's highly likely that if the UK leaves the EU I'll spend 100% of my time outside the UK.
Genuine Q - Where? and just you or your whole family? (wife's NHS job, kids schools etc)Edited by DavidJG on Wednesday 10th February 09:47
DavidJG said:
This. Although I was born in the UK, I now see myself as more European than British. I prefer European culture - the UK could learn a lot from French & Italian cultures if we choose to. Unfortunately, as we can see from a number of posters on this and other threads, the average Brit considers that the EU has nothing to offer and prefers to focus on the perceived negatives of political union.
Personally, I'd prefer to see a closer political union, with the UK actively involved in the leadership of that political union, rather than standing back and complaining that we don't like it very much.
Should have read this 1st......forget my previous Q's as anything you may say will not resonate with me one iota and we would both just be wasting our time.Personally, I'd prefer to see a closer political union, with the UK actively involved in the leadership of that political union, rather than standing back and complaining that we don't like it very much.
alfie2244 said:
Genuine Q - Where? and just you or your whole family? (wife's NHS job, kids schools etc)
Well, my wife and I both speak French & Romanian (Romanian is easy if you've ever studied Latin). I'm also OK with German & Spanish, she also speaks Polish. We both also have skills that are in demand in all of these countries, so we can pretty much take our pick.Scuffers said:
so, Plessey, Philips, LG, etc. did not close all their production sites in the UK and leave then?
and in todays papers:
Britain's trade to EU slumps: Major boost for the 'Leave' campaign as our exports outside Europe continue to soar
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439693/Br...
and in todays papers:
Britain's trade to EU slumps: Major boost for the 'Leave' campaign as our exports outside Europe continue to soar
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439693/Br...
Daily Mail said:
The EU accounted for 62 per cent of British exports in 2006, compared with just 47 per cent last year.
We really need the ability to do trade deals with the countries that matter.DavidJG said:
I spend more time outside the UK than in. I think it's highly likely that if the UK leaves the EU I'll spend 100% of my time outside the UK.
That's fine - but it's not a good reason for everyone else in the UK [to be in/out the EU]. Most of my family are in Australia, a few others around Singapore/Malaysia. But I choose to live here, for better or worse, because it is the UK and I like the laws/traditions/culture here. I will be voting out for exactly these reasons.Edited by fido on Wednesday 10th February 12:01
DavidJG said:
This. Although I was born in the UK, I now see myself as more European than British. I prefer European culture - the UK could learn a lot from French & Italian cultures if we choose to. Unfortunately, as we can see from a number of posters on this and other threads, the average Brit considers that the EU has nothing to offer and prefers to focus on the perceived negatives of political union.
As ever with the "innies", you conflate the EU with "Europe". I and most others have no beef with the peoples of europe (indeed I think the French do a number of things rather well, hell even the Germans 
), it's the political construct we dislike. Why does learning from a different culture require a massive corrupt superstate ? Does that mean we can't learn from the US or Japan because we're not in political union with them?Europe has plenty to offer, the EU, not so much.
DavidJG said:
alfie2244 said:
Genuine Q - Where? and just you or your whole family? (wife's NHS job, kids schools etc)
Well, my wife and I both speak French & Romanian (Romanian is easy if you've ever studied Latin). I'm also OK with German & Spanish, she also speaks Polish. We both also have skills that are in demand in all of these countries, so we can pretty much take our pick.ps Not wanting political union with the EU has absolutely nothing to do with liking Europe, it's peoples and their cultures and is somewhat dishonest of you to conflate the two IMO.
alfie2244 said:
ps Not wanting political union with the EU has absolutely nothing to do with liking Europe, it's peoples and their cultures and is somewhat dishonest of you to conflate the two IMO.
Spot on...Just how many times does this need to be said? (for the terminally stupid to understand)
Scuffers said:
alfie2244 said:
ps Not wanting political union with the EU has absolutely nothing to do with liking Europe, it's peoples and their cultures and is somewhat dishonest of you to conflate the two IMO.
Spot on...Just how many times does this need to be said? (for the terminally stupid to understand)
I would use your phrase about the terminally stupid, but you are still alive, so it doesn't make sense.
Zod said:
Scuffers said:
alfie2244 said:
ps Not wanting political union with the EU has absolutely nothing to do with liking Europe, it's peoples and their cultures and is somewhat dishonest of you to conflate the two IMO.
Spot on...Just how many times does this need to be said? (for the terminally stupid to understand)
I would use your phrase about the terminally stupid, but you are still alive, so it doesn't make sense.
Zod said:
Not wanting political union is not the same thing as thinking we are better off remaining a member of the EU on our terms.
and what terms are they?if it was simply a trade zone/area, then no problem.
NOBODY voted for political union, Nobody voted for a EU president, all the EU commissioners, and EU army, etc etc etc.
The EU is in decline, it's a rapidly shrinking market, with a failing currency, politically deadlocked into policies that will guarantee it's decline.
to argue for the EU is to be terminally stupid unless you have some personal snout in the trough.
To use the monty-python line, "what has the EU done for us?"
once you strip out the bulls
t about Mobile phone roaming, the 6 nations, and some unquantifiable fuzzy crap, what exactly have we gained?Now consider the costs to the UK.
DavidJG said:
Mario149 said:
I think of the UK as my country, but Europe as my "bigger" country. Becoming more unified in the future (but at a pace people are happy with) seems like progress, whereas every country just looking out for themselves and trying to go their own way seems like going back in time and regressing. Hell, why don't we just go back to having a Europe of 100s of Duchies, Kingdoms and City States just with elected leaders.
This. Although I was born in the UK, I now see myself as more European than British. I prefer European culture - the UK could learn a lot from French & Italian cultures if we choose to. Unfortunately, as we can see from a number of posters on this and other threads, the average Brit considers that the EU has nothing to offer and prefers to focus on the perceived negatives of political union. Gut feelings, desires or emotions are simply not credible when dealing with a decision of this magnitude that will have lasting effects for a generation or more.
TEKNOPUG said:
It just seems to be a lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric or propositions about the future that bare no reflection to the evidence of the present.
The problem is that no one knows what agreements might be put in place to allow free trade and free movement of labour (like the Swiss) post-Brexit, so it is all speculation.You are asking the impossible.
What is a fact, is that if you are thinking about building a new factory that will make stuff to export to the EU and have a choice between the UK and Spain, you might opt for Spain simply because you can't run the risk of punitive import tariffs making your products far too expensive to sell vs. EU made products.
walm said:
TEKNOPUG said:
It just seems to be a lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric or propositions about the future that bare no reflection to the evidence of the present.
The problem is that no one knows what agreements might be put in place to allow free trade and free movement of labour (like the Swiss) post-Brexit, so it is all speculation.You are asking the impossible.
What is a fact, is that if you are thinking about building a new factory that will make stuff to export to the EU and have a choice between the UK and Spain, you might opt for Spain simply because you can't run the risk of punitive import tariffs making your products far too expensive to sell vs. EU made products.
walm said:
The problem is that no one knows what agreements might be put in place to allow free trade and free movement of labour (like the Swiss) post-Brexit, so it is all speculation.
You are asking the impossible.
What is a fact, is that if you are thinking about building a new factory that will make stuff to export to the EU and have a choice between the UK and Spain, you might opt for Spain simply because you can't run the risk of punitive import tariffs making your products far too expensive to sell vs. EU made products.
that's essetially it, You are asking the impossible.
What is a fact, is that if you are thinking about building a new factory that will make stuff to export to the EU and have a choice between the UK and Spain, you might opt for Spain simply because you can't run the risk of punitive import tariffs making your products far too expensive to sell vs. EU made products.
However, worse case scenario is ~3% tariffs on imports to the EU (WTO stuff).
3% in the context, is bugger all, we have bigger swings in exchange rate that that all the time, and as people keep pointing out, should the EU choose to go this way, with the current balance of trade, they lose out almost 2/1.
the UK is the largest single market to the rest of the EU, ie, they have a far higher dependence on the UK being here than we do on them, this is diametrically opposite to the position of Germany, they depend on the rest of the EU to sell their goods into.
in 5 years time, EU exports from the UK are looking to fall to <25%, the EU as a trading entity is shrinking fast.
The sensible option is to jump ship now.
TEKNOPUG said:
Can some please provide FACTS of how being in the EU is of benefit - what exactly are the positives and how can those positives only exist by being in the EU? You could start with where all the money goes - the EU would probably like to know themselves, seeing as they can't even bother to account for it. What does the EU offer that ONLY the EU can offer? Lots of facts have been posted on this thread about the negatives of EU membership and benefits of BREXIT. I'd like to make an informed decision, as I try to with anything, based on evidence. I haven't voted yet so I'm open to be swayed but I've yet to hear any reasoned, informed, factual evidence as to why remaining part of the EU is preferable to leaving. It just seems to be a lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric or propositions about the future that bare no reflection to the evidence of the present. The very fact that the British public were deliberately lied to during the first referendum (see FCO 30/1048) makes me extremely dubious of any current claims that aren't supported by tangible evidence.
Gut feelings, desires or emotions are simply not credible when dealing with a decision of this magnitude that will have lasting effects for a generation or more.
From all the pros and cons what I'm starting to realise is this isn't a vote about business/financial benefits. They'll make do regardless, I could personally be out of or in pocket by ~£500 a year. I won't particularly care about the financial change either way.Gut feelings, desires or emotions are simply not credible when dealing with a decision of this magnitude that will have lasting effects for a generation or more.
What I think this vote is all about, which is what In campaign is avoiding, is who you want to govern us.
As technology improves what people want is more individualism. Everything is more and more tailored to individual requirements. This is where I think modern politics has it wrong. I think the political class expected people to want more centralised government where I think the opposite is true.
This is what the vote is about imo. Greater centralisation?
s2art said:
FFS, there will be no punitive import tariffs!
It's a slight simplification. It could be a formal tariff or another burden that adds to cost.I realise there are limits on the formal tariffs but there is also a question of regulation.
If you are making something ex-EU it would be possible for the EU to claim that it isn't fit to be sold in the EU without certain hoops to be jumped through...
Certainly in finance for example the ability to passport your regulatory approval from the UK to any EU country is a huge benefit.
Scuffers said:
NOBODY voted for political union, Nobody voted for a EU president, all the EU commissioners, and EU army, etc etc etc.
In case it escaped your notice we live a parliamentary democracy. Parliament undoubtedly did vote for all those things as they voted on the bills in parliament that ratified the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.Mario149 said:
Scuffers said:
Now consider the costs to the UK.
1.6% of our public spending. Even if we did get all of that back and didn't lose anything, you're not going to notice any huge change for the better same as you wouldn't if someone gave you a 1.6% pay rise.ie. half our welfare budget, or half the defence budget
or enough money sort out our roads properly, etc etc etc.
and that's before you remember the £1.7Bn surcharge we got hit with.
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