So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
Guybrush said:
fido said:
el stovey said:
I was surprised that generally older people want to leave the EU. I thought usually they are the group that vote for no change and stability.
Well the pluses for older people are they: have wisdom/experience, know what bullsh8t smells like, know what life was like before the EU. Not saying they are always right, far from it, but they have had more years to understand how the world works. And doesn't. Like the EU.woowahwoo said:
ATG said:
When one considers how much more successful Germany is than us at exporting goods across the world, it is pretty obvious that our trade problems have nothing to do with our EU membership.
Could be both. The EU is, in practice, not a successful one-size fits all approach, and we have structural problems, beyond the EU's affect, which prevent us from competing with Germany's industrial output (e.g. Mittelstand, educational achievement and the quality of the workforce => productivity)
ATG said:
When one considers how much more successful Germany is than us at exporting goods across the world, it is pretty obvious that our trade problems have nothing to do with our EU membership.
Assuming you can still trade freely with the EU post Brexit (a pre-requisite I'd have thought) what harm can trading trading more freely with the rest of the world do? Why the UK doesn't manufacuter and export to German levels is a whole other set of issues. Hiding behind protectionist trade barriers does no one any favours.wolves_wanderer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Efbe said:
fatjon said:
You seem to be confusing Lefties, Guardian readers and Independent readers with well educated and clever people.
I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
hahahaha, serious, politically centre?I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
PH is about as right wing a forum of this size there is.
Efbe said:
fatjon said:
You seem to be confusing Lefties, Guardian readers and Independent readers with well educated and clever people.
I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
hahahaha, serious, politically centre?I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
PH is about as right wing a forum of this size there is.
Greg66 said:
wolves_wanderer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Efbe said:
fatjon said:
You seem to be confusing Lefties, Guardian readers and Independent readers with well educated and clever people.
I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
hahahaha, serious, politically centre?I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
PH is about as right wing a forum of this size there is.
I see that you drive an S8. I must say that I approve.
don4l said:
Greg66 said:
wolves_wanderer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Efbe said:
fatjon said:
You seem to be confusing Lefties, Guardian readers and Independent readers with well educated and clever people.
I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
hahahaha, serious, politically centre?I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
PH is about as right wing a forum of this size there is.
I see that you drive an S8. I must say that I approve.
wolves_wanderer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Efbe said:
fatjon said:
You seem to be confusing Lefties, Guardian readers and Independent readers with well educated and clever people.
I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
hahahaha, serious, politically centre?I would have put the majority of the posters on this site as politically centre, mid to high income. Most are skilled/professional articulate people but there seems to be a massive majority in favour of out or leaning that way. I suspect these polls predicting an in vote will turn out to be nearly as accurate as the last GE polls. It really does not seem to be party political or educational/income based at all.
PH is about as right wing a forum of this size there is.
The world according to the BBC isn't anywhere near a centrist perspective, HTH
del mar said:
...We will be asked to vote with only half the information. It would be impossible to make a decent decision.
This is my impression exactly. Who could claim to know the actual impact with only anecdotal input? What relevance does an import/export ratio actually have? Free trade? Foreign investments? Contributions and returns from the EU pot?The individuals who will react on (perception of possible) change will certainly decide on their personal advantage. White and blue collar workers may well base their decision on their patriotic feelings. Business leaders who are involved internationally will have more value based reasons to decide.
Why would an Asian company who chose the UK as their European manufacturing base benefit from the location UK when there are trade barriers?
Why would a domestically trading UK business want their foreign competition not to have trade disadvantages?
It's all up to everyone's individual needs.
el stovey said:
Looks like.
Pro EU tend to be = clever people, good jobs, well educated, left wing, young.
Against EU tend to be = Less educated, not so good jobs, right wing, old.
I think that's exactly how it's meant to look. Ironically, so that aspiring leaders and thinkers can know which side to back without actually having any reason to do so.Pro EU tend to be = clever people, good jobs, well educated, left wing, young.
Against EU tend to be = Less educated, not so good jobs, right wing, old.
TEKNOPUG said:
ATG said:
When one considers how much more successful Germany is than us at exporting goods across the world, it is pretty obvious that our trade problems have nothing to do with our EU membership.
You mean an economy that is industry driven, that requires a low-wage workforce and access to a market that has come into a lot of easy money/credit and it looking to buy consumer goods? It would be even better if it was in a single currency zone and if it's political leaders could heavily influence the finances and budgets of it's trading partners....Some kind of economic & political union of countries, whereby the rich would subsidise the poor, so that the poor can buy German goods? And even if they can no longer afford to do so, we can just keep lending them more money? If it could also be arranged so that there is a constant flow of very cheap labour to keep costs down, that would also be of great help.
But that's just pure fantasy, the very idea that Germany could somehow massively benefit from such an arrangement when we all know they are an industrial exporting miracle without the need for any need of assistance...
Derek Smith said:
fblm said:
AFAIK you are only allowed to trade with non-EU countries on the terms agreed by the EU. You can't go and agree free trade between the UK and USA, you have to impose EU tariffs.
I write about trade regulations. I can say that most of EU regs would apply whether we were inside the EU or outside if we wanted to trade with them. Most non-EU countries have their own regulations. If anything, companies get a benefit from overarching regs. Deal with one country and you can deal with them all. The only difference is that there is a chance of influencing any legislation from within.Most "EU" regs are these days more like "world" regs, the EU having but one seat at the table. The idea that we get more influence at that table by being in the EU is bunkum, it just means we have 1/28th of a voice instead of a whole one.
Bodo said:
This is my impression exactly. Who could claim to know the actual impact with only anecdotal input? What relevance does an import/export ratio actually have? Free trade? Foreign investments? Contributions and returns from the EU pot?
The individuals who will react on (perception of possible) change will certainly decide on their personal advantage. White and blue collar workers may well base their decision on their patriotic feelings. Business leaders who are involved internationally will have more value based reasons to decide.
Why would an Asian company who chose the UK as their European manufacturing base benefit from the location UK when there are trade barriers?
Why would a domestically trading UK business want their foreign competition not to have trade disadvantages?
It's all up to everyone's individual needs.
You've defined it for me. The problem is that nothing is clear. We are being asked to vote on something where the results of an exit vary depending on statements rather than evidence. The individuals who will react on (perception of possible) change will certainly decide on their personal advantage. White and blue collar workers may well base their decision on their patriotic feelings. Business leaders who are involved internationally will have more value based reasons to decide.
Why would an Asian company who chose the UK as their European manufacturing base benefit from the location UK when there are trade barriers?
Why would a domestically trading UK business want their foreign competition not to have trade disadvantages?
It's all up to everyone's individual needs.
The question, which you have identified, of manufacturing going from the UK is a case in point. There seems to me to be no reason for the car manufacturers to remain in the UK if we leave the UK. They like this country because it is easier to sack people and other employment legislation that is somewhat less prescriptive than most of the rest of the EU.
Where's the evidence to show that they would remain or perhaps we would get other companies to come in?
We have evidence of what we have now of course. It is all around us. So there's something of a hill to climb for the exit when it comes to proving we'll all be better off.
CrutyRammers said:
Is this still being peddled, still?
Most "EU" regs are these days more like "world" regs, the EU having but one seat at the table. The idea that we get more influence at that table by being in the EU is bunkum, it just means we have 1/28th of a voice instead of a whole one.
Not quite right.Most "EU" regs are these days more like "world" regs, the EU having but one seat at the table. The idea that we get more influence at that table by being in the EU is bunkum, it just means we have 1/28th of a voice instead of a whole one.
The EU is a big player, despite having just one seat at the table. It is certainly a bigger player than the UK would be on its own. The idea of 1/28th ignores the fact that there are power groups within the EU.
The example of safe harbour is one for the effectiveness of the EU. 'We' have standards of personal security that differs from that of the USA. The EU has kicked SH into touch and the Yanks will have to modify it in some way. We've already seen data storage movement towards the EU.
As to the EU's regs being 'world regs', well that surely is the point. The EU wants to trade with the world and sets out its stand. Everyone needs to comply with foreign requirements. The EU has a certain leverage. It might be small, but it exists. The UK, it we went on our own, would not have the same degree of leverage, would not even have 1/28th of leverage and would have to comply with, for instance, safe harbour regardless of our desires.
The most remarkable thing about DC's negotiations was not so much the result as the fact that it was treated seriously. The UK is seen as important to the EU. Certainly more important than 1/28th.
Sheepshanks said:
Esseesse said:
so called said:
I want to stay in.
Have to find a new job otherwise
You probably wouldn't.Have to find a new job otherwise
I'm pretty sure it will cause problems but I'll wait and see.
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