So who wants to remain in the EU?
Discussion
It's all going really well. The EU are bending over backwards to keep us in and an 'in' vote is a dead cert.....
oh, hang on a bit....
http://news.sky.com/story/1639668/britains-eu-refo...
oh, hang on a bit....
http://news.sky.com/story/1639668/britains-eu-refo...
Cobnapint said:
It's all going really well. The EU are bending over backwards to keep us in and an 'in' vote is a dead cert.....
oh, hang on a bit....
http://news.sky.com/story/1639668/britains-eu-refo...
Staged IMO, wait till Feb 19th.oh, hang on a bit....
http://news.sky.com/story/1639668/britains-eu-refo...
v8250 said:
As per thread title...well, the Swiss certainly want as little as possible to do with the EU and Islamification. Have been following the Swiss for a while now...hat's off to them for standing up to their independent federal rights. They even banned the building of minarets as far back as 2009. This for your evening's pleasure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCW2hxux3Ro
Love the phrase..."The prophet's beard is not for fondling..."
some discomfort in watching that - one might suspect that he's not averse to a bit of racism. Indeed one the party's adverts ain't zactly subtle...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCW2hxux3Ro
Love the phrase..."The prophet's beard is not for fondling..."
Scuffers said:
MarshPhantom said:
I'll vote to stay if only because we have no idea what may happen if we leave. There are no facts, it's all guesswork and lies, and I think we need more than that to make such a big decision.
that's a reallt lame argument.plenty of info out there, you just need to look for it.
ignore the politicians, and look at the rest of the world.
we leave, the sky is not going to suddenly fall in.
the biggest risk is what our own domestic politicians do once we are freed from the EU, I can see some of them desperately trying to mirror the very shame policies and s
t we pulled out to avoid.You have no way of knowing what the the future may hold after brexit.
MarshPhantom said:
There may be "info" out there. Who wrote it and what is their agenda?
You have no way of knowing what the the future may hold after brexit.
Exactly the same things apply to staying in though. You have no way of knowing what the the future may hold after brexit.
Our ability to secure a deal for the benefit of the UK ought to be the strongest it will ever be right now. Things will only get worse from here.
It scares me far more what a bunch of unelected halfwits have in their minds, and have been chipping away at for the last 40yrs.
The UK public were sold a dummy back then. If we let it happen again I really can't see it ending well.
woowahwoo said:
wolves_wanderer said:
For a big decision like this a lot of people need more than airy promises to make a leap into the unknown.
Staying in holds more 'unknowns'. Anyway, this is not Scottish independence; here the likely outcomes are fairly well understood.
[/quote
Yes and I doubt the EU will be as generous to the UK as we were to the Scots when they voted to stay
Squeeeeelllllll little piggy bank springs to mind...
MarshPhantom said:
Scuffers said:
MarshPhantom said:
I'll vote to stay if only because we have no idea what may happen if we leave. There are no facts, it's all guesswork and lies, and I think we need more than that to make such a big decision.
that's a reallt lame argument.plenty of info out there, you just need to look for it.
ignore the politicians, and look at the rest of the world.
we leave, the sky is not going to suddenly fall in.
the biggest risk is what our own domestic politicians do once we are freed from the EU, I can see some of them desperately trying to mirror the very shame policies and s
t we pulled out to avoid.You have no way of knowing what the the future may hold after brexit.
Then we will really be in trouble. It's an absolute f
k up now, it will only get worse. TEKNOPUG said:
Post BREXIT, we can let into the country whoever we damn well like - the entire world if we want. Or not. That's the point.
I do understand that.But the whole point appears to be that while the more rational OUT voters think that they just want control of the borders, and that is clearly a good thing.
But the vast majority of the voters don't think like that. They want NO immigration or seriously limited.
They want control - yes - but more than that, they want to let NO ONE in.
I understand the importance of sovereignty and being able to dictate who has the right to live in your country but it appears wildly unrealistic of OUT voters to think that the government would say "OK now we have control so we are going to let just as many immigrants in as we did before".
walm said:
But the vast majority of the voters don't think like that. They want NO immigration or seriously limited.
They want control - yes - but more than that, they want to let NO ONE in.
in the short term, you're probably right.They want control - yes - but more than that, they want to let NO ONE in.
And realistically, I could go with the idea of a complete clamp down for 12 months whilst the home office sort themselves out, deal with the backlog, and setup the new policies for a points based system.
during the 12 month freeze, only immigration allowed would be company sponsored applications for skilled staff.
one of the problems we need to address is the total mess that is the home office, whichever way this goes, every government has promised to do this, not have done it, my view is we need to setup a brand new department to deal with immigration, with NO TRANSFER of staff (especially management) from the existing mess, once it's up and running, basically shut down the old, failed depatment.
irocfan said:
some discomfort in watching that - one might suspect that he's not averse to a bit of racism. Indeed one the party's adverts ain't zactly subtle...
Possibly, but the openness of Swiss politics is very different to the grey whitewash BS of UK politics. They say what they mean, obtain 100,000 votes and the final vote to policy change goes to the people. The Swiss have simply had enough of EU interference and failings...and the rife social difficulties caused by immigration. They will not accept a dumbing down of their country, nor the increase in violence, drugs, unemployed migrants, people who do not contribute to the Swiss way of life. There's much the UK could learn from the Swiss system.walm said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Post BREXIT, we can let into the country whoever we damn well like - the entire world if we want. Or not. That's the point.
I do understand that.But the whole point appears to be that while the more rational OUT voters think that they just want control of the borders, and that is clearly a good thing.
But the vast majority of the voters don't think like that. They want NO immigration or seriously limited.
They want control - yes - but more than that, they want to let NO ONE in.
I understand the importance of sovereignty and being able to dictate who has the right to live in your country but it appears wildly unrealistic of OUT voters to think that the government would say "OK now we have control so we are going to let just as many immigrants in as we did before".
In fact should we vote LEAVE, UKIP by all accounts would become an irrelevance. What would they stand for? We've become independent. Why would anyone vote for them? And even if the "PH anti-immigration, anti-everything Party" won the next general election, that would be due to the will of the British people, who are more than capable of kicking out politicians & parties they don't like, as they are of electing them.
You still sound like you think the referendum is either: stay in the EU or an ultra-far right fascist Junta will take over the country and kick all the immigrants out. Those are the only 2 options. I don't think immigration is even the key factor in leaving the EU, it's a bit of a distraction. But if immigration is a key concern to you, do you think that currently there are:
A = too few immigrants in the UK
B = too many immigrants in the UK
C = the right number of immigrants in the UK
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Thursday 11th February 10:32
TEKNOPUG said:
But if immigration is a key concern to you, do you think that currently there are:
A = too few immigrants in the UK
B = FAR TOO MANY immigrants in the UK
C = the right number of immigrants in the UK
Have corrected that for you A = too few immigrants in the UK
B = FAR TOO MANY immigrants in the UK
C = the right number of immigrants in the UK
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Thursday 11th February 10:32
v8250 said:
TEKNOPUG said:
But if immigration is a key concern to you, do you think that currently there are:
A = too few immigrants in the UK
B = FAR TOO MANY immigrants in the UK
C = the right number of immigrants in the UK
Have corrected that for you A = too few immigrants in the UK
B = FAR TOO MANY immigrants in the UK
C = the right number of immigrants in the UK
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Thursday 11th February 10:32
TEKNOPUG said:
What on Earth are you talking about? Who are this vast majority who want to let no one in? You still seem very confused between a vote to exit the EU and vote for UKIP to be in government.
Voting Tory doesn't make you pro-immigration. (Nor does voting Labour.)Far from it.
My point is simple. Immigration is the absolutely number one concern for most people voting on Brexit.
Farage, "It is clear that immigration is the number one issue".
Conservative Home, "The case for Brexit point 2:Better immigration control... polling shows that most voters want less immigration".
Express poll, "two thirds of those backing Britain’s exit from the European Union say immigration cannot be controlled from inside the EU."
Centre for European Reform, "If the UK quits the EU, it will be because British politicians have pandered to anti-immigrant sentiment rather than addressing the supply-side failures."
The economic debate has a LOT of shades of grey - it is very easy to make relatively strong arguments from both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to know definitively whether we would be better off with or without EU membership.
(Scruffers link to the 8% cost of living benefit can be easily countered with the fact that WTO agreements only loosely cover services exports for example - we just can't know the outcome of trade agreements that haven't been formed yet!)
As a result, most voters (understandably) will latch on to something else in the debate that is more black and white to make their decision.
Hence immigration becomes the key question.
TEKNOPUG said:
Fence-sitter. I'd rather hear the views of those with a considered opinion.
Quite rightly so. And my considered opinion is that there are far too many immigrants in the country. They need to learn how to stop fking up there own countries before they're permitted to export/import themselves to fk up their adoptive country. If they wish to live in the UK then they must adopt UK culture, speak English, have zero access to financial support upon entry...and if they don't like it, they should not come here. It's quite straight forward.walm said:
Voting Tory doesn't make you pro-immigration. (Nor does voting Labour.)
Far from it.
My point is simple. Immigration is the absolutely number one concern for most people voting on Brexit.
Farage, "It is clear that immigration is the number one issue".
Conservative Home, "The case for Brexit point 2:Better immigration control... polling shows that most voters want less immigration".
Express poll, "two thirds of those backing Britain’s exit from the European Union say immigration cannot be controlled from inside the EU."
Centre for European Reform, "If the UK quits the EU, it will be because British politicians have pandered to anti-immigrant sentiment rather than addressing the supply-side failures."
The economic debate has a LOT of shades of grey - it is very easy to make relatively strong arguments from both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to know definitively whether we would be better off with or without EU membership.
(Scruffers link to the 8% cost of living benefit can be easily countered with the fact that WTO agreements only loosely cover services exports for example - we just can't know the outcome of trade agreements that haven't been formed yet!)
As a result, most voters (understandably) will latch on to something else in the debate that is more black and white to make their decision.
Hence immigration becomes the key question.
And how have you linked any of that into the "vast majority of voters wanting to let NO ONE in"? Immigration isn't a key issue for me but it may be for you. If that's the case, wouldn't you like a say in the UK's immigration policy? Perhaps you'd like to vote for a Party that wants more immigration or less immigration or no immigration? Currently you have no say in it whatsoever. I think that the "vast majority of voters wanting to CHOOSE WHO comes in" is more accurate. I'm more interested in the financial & sovereign issues of EU membership.Far from it.
My point is simple. Immigration is the absolutely number one concern for most people voting on Brexit.
Farage, "It is clear that immigration is the number one issue".
Conservative Home, "The case for Brexit point 2:Better immigration control... polling shows that most voters want less immigration".
Express poll, "two thirds of those backing Britain’s exit from the European Union say immigration cannot be controlled from inside the EU."
Centre for European Reform, "If the UK quits the EU, it will be because British politicians have pandered to anti-immigrant sentiment rather than addressing the supply-side failures."
The economic debate has a LOT of shades of grey - it is very easy to make relatively strong arguments from both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to know definitively whether we would be better off with or without EU membership.
(Scruffers link to the 8% cost of living benefit can be easily countered with the fact that WTO agreements only loosely cover services exports for example - we just can't know the outcome of trade agreements that haven't been formed yet!)
As a result, most voters (understandably) will latch on to something else in the debate that is more black and white to make their decision.
Hence immigration becomes the key question.
v8250 said:
Quite rightly so. And my considered opinion is that there are far too many immigrants in the country. They need to learn how to stop fking up there own countries before they're permitted to export/import themselves to fk up their adoptive country. If they wish to live in the UK then they must adopt UK culture, speak English, have zero access to financial support upon entry...and if they don't like it, they should not come here. It's quite straight forward.
How have the Poles, Hungarians , Chzecs and Slovakians fking up there own countries before they're permitted to export/import themselves to fk up their adoptive country. If they wish to live in the UK then they must adopt UK culture, speak English, have zero access to financial support upon entry...and if they don't like it, they should not come here. It's quite straight forward.ked up there own country? What evidence is there of them not adapting to UK culture and not speaking English?I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.
It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
king ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system. It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
FredClogs said:
I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.
It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
So as it doesn't matter to you who makes the rules, you'll be abstaining from the vote then?king ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system. It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
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