So who wants to remain in the EU?

So who wants to remain in the EU?

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Discussion

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.

It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
You really do waffle some ste...

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
FredClogs said:
I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.

It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
So as it doesn't matter to you who makes the rules, you'll be abstaining from the vote then?
That's not what I said is it? It doesn't matter to me which patch of the earth those that make the rules were plopped onto, as long as the decisions and rules are the correct ones. You only need to look at these forums, the wasted energy and pointless meanderings over who does what rather than what gets done is so such pap. It's just tribalism, completely unnecessary in the 1st world.

TEKNOPUG

18,842 posts

204 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
TEKNOPUG said:
FredClogs said:
I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.

It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
So as it doesn't matter to you who makes the rules, you'll be abstaining from the vote then?
That's not what I said is it? It doesn't matter to me which patch of the earth those that make the rules were plopped onto, as long as the decisions and rules are the correct ones. You only need to look at these forums, the wasted energy and pointless meanderings over who does what rather than what gets done is so such pap. It's just tribalism, completely unnecessary in the 1st world.
No, you said "The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules". That's exactly what the EU referendum is about - who gets to make the rules. Who decides what the correct rules & decisions are? You? If you vote, either way, you must care about who makes the rules?

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
It's just tribalism, completely unnecessary in the 1st world.
Thats nonsense. Just abandoning nation states as you suggest, ignores the simple reality that the human species does seek involvement in tribes similar to themselves. It does not matter if it is by religion, by nation state, or through which football team you support; it is a part of the human condition.

"Tribes" as you put it, are inevitable. They are all around us. The EU is a tribe and the simple issue to be debated, is if the values and ideas of the EU tribe are the same as our own.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
I know we're an island nation with a proud heritage and distinct culture. But I do wish people would, when voting in this referendum, consider the ridiculous nature of nation states and the arbitrary lines on a map defining who people are, how they behave and what liberties and rights they're entitled to. It's fking ridiculous. Europe is a 1000 year old hegemony, Germany as a nation is only just over 125 years old, France is no more a unified nation state than the UK is, Spain likewise - we're all different, yes, but we're also all the same and the only system of government that makes any sense is a global over arching federal system.

It'll be 2020 before we know it, there's a very real possibility that before the end of my life humans will have taken huge steps towards becoming semi borg, synthetically enhanced super humans with huge chunks of our intellect and even perhaps our consciousness transmogrified into silicon - it's already happening. The stupidity of arguing over who gets to make the rules on how many fish people from different villages can catch is fecking absurd!
The thing is, that you argue we should globally become more alike/similar/unified, whereas in reality we have seen more and more fracturing.

Look at the various independence movements that want to fracture even more.

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
I always knew there was a hidden agenda when they cloned Dolly............baaaaaaaaaaaaa

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
walm said:
That risk just isn't worth it given the benefit of exiting appears minimal.
Minimal?

really?

predictions are some 8% drop in cost of living just for starters, I don't call that minimal, do you?


https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
Oh, it's all so clear and simple. Thank you so much. I don't know why there is even a debate. I want my 8% now!

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Zod said:
Oh, it's all so clear and simple. Thank you so much. I don't know why there is even a debate. I want my 8% now!
so, let me get this right, you think that Prof. Minford is wrong then?

Please tell us all where he has got it all wrong?

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
FredClogs said:
It's just tribalism, completely unnecessary in the 1st world.
Thats nonsense. Just abandoning nation states as you suggest, ignores the simple reality that the human species does seek involvement in tribes similar to themselves. It does not matter if it is by religion, by nation state, or through which football team you support; it is a part of the human condition.

"Tribes" as you put it, are inevitable. They are all around us. The EU is a tribe and the simple issue to be debated, is if the values and ideas of the EU tribe are the same as our own.
It's a cultural trait though, not a biological one.

Anyone who's worked in an international corporate business or other large scale enterprise will verify, it's perfectly possible for people born in different cultures and geography to work together for a common cause, IF the leadership and management of that enterprise is good.

The EU and Euro Parliament is not a tribe, it's a management exercise.

No one is suggesting that sport isn't a good thing or that tribalism isn't part of human nature, but succumbing to petty tribalism at the expense of security, equality and just basic ethical common sense is bizarre in my mind.

walm

10,609 posts

201 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
so, let me get this right, you think that Prof. Minford is wrong then?

Please tell us all where he has got it all wrong?
Well he says prices would drop "on day one".
That's complete fantasy for a start.
It takes time to shift a supply chain.

Furthermore, prices are negotiated - they aren't set in stone.
The absolutely enormous shift in demand to the global suppliers rather than EU based ones would drive up prices.

He has simply taken one set of lower prices and applied them across the board vs. the EU based pricing without taking into account for the impact of that incremental demand.

Furthermore there may be OTHER costs (not just the product price) which rise when changing supplier - distribution costs, and logistics.
I would be simply impossible to switch instantly.

TEKNOPUG

18,842 posts

204 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
walm said:
Well he says prices would drop "on day one".
That's complete fantasy for a start.
It takes time to shift a supply chain.

Furthermore, prices are negotiated - they aren't set in stone.
The absolutely enormous shift in demand to the global suppliers rather than EU based ones would drive up prices.

He has simply taken one set of lower prices and applied them across the board vs. the EU based pricing without taking into account for the impact of that incremental demand.

Furthermore there may be OTHER costs (not just the product price) which rise when changing supplier - distribution costs, and logistics.
I would be simply impossible to switch instantly.
no, you're misinterpreting what he is saying.

Day one means the costs in the system, not to the individual.

Yes, it's a projection, but it's not a wild guess, it's based on a pretty solid financial model where they have applied the changes, no they will not happen overnight (hell, Brexit will likely take 1-2 years), but using todays numbers with the changes, he calculates 8% savings.

Please, pick apart his projections.


plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
no, you're misinterpreting what he is saying.

Day one means the costs in the system, not to the individual.

Yes, it's a projection, but it's not a wild guess, it's based on a pretty solid financial model where they have applied the changes, no they will not happen overnight (hell, Brexit will likely take 1-2 years), but using todays numbers with the changes, he calculates 8% savings.

Please, pick apart his projections.
Where is this financial model? Have you actually seen it?

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
toppstuff said:
FredClogs said:
It's just tribalism, completely unnecessary in the 1st world.
Thats nonsense. Just abandoning nation states as you suggest, ignores the simple reality that the human species does seek involvement in tribes similar to themselves. It does not matter if it is by religion, by nation state, or through which football team you support; it is a part of the human condition.

"Tribes" as you put it, are inevitable. They are all around us. The EU is a tribe and the simple issue to be debated, is if the values and ideas of the EU tribe are the same as our own.
It's a cultural trait though, not a biological one.

Anyone who's worked in an international corporate business or other large scale enterprise will verify, it's perfectly possible for people born in different cultures and geography to work together for a common cause, IF the leadership and management of that enterprise is good.

The EU and Euro Parliament is not a tribe, it's a management exercise.

No one is suggesting that sport isn't a good thing or that tribalism isn't part of human nature, but succumbing to petty tribalism at the expense of security, equality and just basic ethical common sense is bizarre in my mind.
I have worked in large international corporates most of my adult life. I think you miss the point though. A large corporate does indeed bring people together across all cultures and creeds, but they are all there because of a shared endeavour. Whats more, the most successful corporates are those that foster a sense of "tribe' ( If I may call it that for want of a better word ) in that they deliberately create a culture, identity and ethos that binds people together so that they are emotionally invested in what they are doing.

You may like to think we can all be uploaded into mutually beneficial cloud-based relationships based solely on the notion of transactional interface or information flow, but all the evidence points to the fact that to perform best, people like to "belong" to something. Thats why corporates spend billions on creating corporate culture.

FiF

43,957 posts

250 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.
You'll be waiting a long time to get anything other than the usual bull effluent based on nothing more than ooh scary.

I've been asking for well over a year from those who throw out the sop to support their stance for remain being that the EU needs significant reform. When asked what reforms they would like to see, which of those are wishes and which are must haves, and what they're going to do if they don't obtain any of their reforms.

The answer that's been forthcoming is here > link

Clearly empty vessels.



Edited by FiF on Thursday 11th February 13:36

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.

2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.

3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.

4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.

5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...

You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.

superlightr

12,842 posts

262 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.
let me start....
we get a choice to put the euro flag on our numberplates or our own flag.....if leave we we could only put our flag on or none at all. does that count?


EU European union as in a Union. I thought the UK were slowly getting rid of the unions that have plagued the UK over the last 70 years. The unions that were driving firms bankrupt.
Why would we want to stay in an ever closer and bigger Union?
Will we be called Scabbs by the French? Will there be flying pickets with banners and beenie hats on?



AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Fred
How does drawing a bigger box on the map and calling it the EU solve the division and tribalism created by nation states?

I don't hold the nation state as the final word on political organisation for all time but to simply impose a new, bigger and less democratic one on people who don't want it seems like a bad idea.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
plasticpig said:
Where is this financial model? Have you actually seen it?
http://www.patrickminford.net/

Links from there to all his work.


Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?

Also, it's a rapidly shrinking market, even with the growing membership.
FredClogs said:
2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.
Once again, total horlicks.

FredClogs said:
3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.
you mean the EU courts making a mockery of british justice?

FredClogs said:
4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.
Yes, that really works well doesn't it?

EU arrest warrant has really stopped the terrorists in their tracks, like Ashya King's parents...

meantime, we have EU migrants wandering round the UK that are already convicted murderers in their home countries..

FredClogs said:
5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...

You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.
Joint armed services?

you may have missed the point of NATO?