So who wants to remain in the EU?

So who wants to remain in the EU?

Author
Discussion

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Europ...

danllama

5,728 posts

141 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
plasticpig said:
How have the Poles, Hungarians , Chzecs and Slovakians fked up there own country? What evidence is there of them not adapting to UK culture and not speaking English?
Groups of Poles etc sitting on the underground or rail network, pissed out of their faces at 4pm, shouting at each other in their languages...every day.

p.s. nothing against them, my girlfriend is Romanian so I am quite used to these kinds of people. Just pointing out evidence of them not adapting to UK culture.

Well, I don't regularly see Brits pissed on the tube at 4pm in large aggressive groups.

Edited by danllama on Thursday 11th February 14:12

Mrr T

12,153 posts

264 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.
You may not have received a reply because you did not say what you consider the alternative. The alternative take 3 forms:
1. EU exit but Swiss type treaty with EU - The Swiss option.
2. EU exit but remain in the EEA - The Norway option.
3. EU exit no agreements with the EU.

If your alternative is option 3 I would suggest a number of benefits of EU membership.

1. EU Financial Passport which has allowed the UK to become the main centre for EU financial services creating thousands of jobs.
2. Mutual acceptance of product standards.
3. S1/E121 health system.
4. Free movement of Labour.
5. Efficiency of border crossing for goods.

I am sure I can think of more.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
Scuffers said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/
3 years out of date.

it's unlikely that the EU is in the same position currently, and that still only makes it the largest single entity, if you remove the UK's figures from that see where it is.

The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, removing us from the EU's numbers will have a dramatic effect.

Asides all that, our exports to the EU are shrinking as it is.


plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?
It is the largest consumer market based on household final consumption expenditure.

TEKNOPUG

18,844 posts

204 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
TEKNOPUG said:
So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.

I'm pretty sure that the world outside of the EU is a bigger market place? Also, we are a net importer not exporter? So us being in the EU seems more beneficial to the rest of the EU, than to us? I'm not seeing any numbers to quantify this - how much is it worth to the British economy v our EU contributions?

2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.

Why would that change if we left the EU? Surely we will be free to employ whoever we want? Or are you suggesting that the EU will impose travel bans on their own citizens?

3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.

The UK can implement any laws or judicial recourse it sees fit, outside the EU. We could impose every single law that the EU does, if we so wish. Or alternatively we could not, which doesn't seem to be the case currently. Not sure how relinquishing laws to a further, less accountable bureaucracy is a good thing?

4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.

Why would we not continue to do so outside of the EU? Unless the EU doesn't want to cooperate with us? Any figures showing how this works and benefits us in practise? Perhaps post-EU it would be easier for us not to allow entry of EU criminals in the first place or deporting afterwards?

5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...

Why is that a good thing? How does that benefit Britain? The EU has shown itself to be pretty hopeless when it comes to managing conflict - how are things going in Ukraine & Syria? How will joint welfare benefit Britain - we are going to be a net provider, not recipient surely? We already have a free at the point of service healthcare - does the rest of the EU - how does this benefit us?

You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.
Why do we want to move towards a greater federal europe? Why is that a good thing? All seems very vague without any real substantiated evidence. Still doesn't explain where all my tax money is going and what it's being spent on? I seem to be further disenfranchised as a citizen without any tangible evidence of the benefits. Am I simply redistributing my wealth to the poorer countries, so that they in turn can buy products from Germany/France? I don't feel particularly enamoured with the idea of subsidising Franco/German industry. Certainly if this was a referendum to join the EU, it's not doing a great job of selling it to me.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Zod said:
Oh, it's all so clear and simple. Thank you so much. I don't know why there is even a debate. I want my 8% now!
so, let me get this right, you think that Prof. Minford is wrong then?

Please tell us all where he has got it all wrong?
He is one economist from the 1980s. You have heard of him and he says what you want to hear, so you just accept it.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Here are some more economists.

It is ridiculous to point to one economist's predictions in the way Scuffers has.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
plasticpig said:
Scuffers said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?
It is the largest consumer market based on household final consumption expenditure.
nope..

just add up the EU countries in that list, you end up at ~10,000,000M US$, still behind america.

and they are still 2013 figures, but even going by them, the UK accounts for some 17% of the EU market.


wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
danllama said:
Groups of Poles etc sitting on the underground or rail network, pissed out of their faces at 4pm, shouting at each other in their languages...every day.

p.s. nothing against them, my girlfriend is Romanian so I am quite used to these kinds of people. Just pointing out evidence of them not adapting to UK culture.

Well, I don't regularly see Brits pissed on the tube at 4pm in large aggressive groups.

Edited by danllama on Thursday 11th February 14:12
you sure they are poles ? every single pole i know is hard working to the point of obsessive. they speak better english than some of the locals and appear to bring their kids up to be respectful and hard working as well,again something some of the locals could learn from.

only my experience though,so i accept others may differ. i do know one polish girl that reckons a lot of the nutters came to the uk and her home town is a nicer place as a result.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.

2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.

3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.

4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.

5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...

You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.
rofl


wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
TEKNOPUG said:
Why do we want to move towards a greater federal europe? Why is that a good thing? All seems very vague without any real substantiated evidence. Still doesn't explain where all my tax money is going and what it's being spent on? I seem to be further disenfranchised as a citizen without any tangible evidence of the benefits. Am I simply redistributing my wealth to the poorer countries, so that they in turn can buy products from Germany/France? I don't feel particularly enamoured with the idea of subsidising Franco/German industry. Certainly if this was a referendum to join the EU, it's not doing a great job of selling it to me.
this is the crux of the issue for me. if it were a vote to join i doubt many would be jumping at the chance. the complete disregard for the future of an entire generation of european youth by those running the eu guarantees my out vote.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
plasticpig said:
Scuffers said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.
The EU is nothing like the worlds largest market place, where did you get that from?
It is the largest consumer market based on household final consumption expenditure.
nope..

just add up the EU countries in that list, you end up at ~10,000,000M US$, still behind america.

and they are still 2013 figures, but even going by them, the UK accounts for some 17% of the EU market.
This all rather misses the point that you may well have open and free market access to the EU but you do so at the expense of open and free market access to the rest of the world. Regardless of how big the EU is as a single entity it is not as big as the rest of the world. Secondly, open and free market access to the EU is not dependent on EU membership so listing it as a benefit is like those car ads that helpfully still say ABS and central locking.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.

2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.

3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.

4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.

5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...



You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.
.
Well, speaking for just myself:-

1) I'm doubtful that any benefits are as great as you seem to be suggesting

2) As 1)

3) I don't want any more levels of judicial recourse

4) We will have co-operation and joint working if/when we want it. The EU is largely irrelevant.

5) I don't want further integration, it's more than enough already.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
fblm said:
This all rather misses the point that you may well have open and free market access to the EU but you do so at the expense of open and free market access to the rest of the world. Regardless of how big the EU is as a single entity it is not as big as the rest of the world. Secondly, open and free market access to the EU is not dependent on EU membership so listing it as a benefit is like those car ads that helpfully still say ABS and central locking.
That's a bit obtuse, I said "guaranteed" access, I even highlighted the word for you.

If we take for example the US relationship with the EU (one that post BREXIT we'd presumably hope to replicate) you'll see it's far from straightforward, with the formation of the Transatlantic Economic Council (a set of faceless unelected bureaucrats btw) and horrible diplomatic pit falls, like various embargo supports and even the bugging of Mrs Merkels office. The whole things is subject to change at a moments notice and one false step could land either party with a shoe full of turd.

And that's the US - EU who do some $1trillion dollars of trade a year, our small island would be left having to double up on these political and diplomatic efforts to even begin to start a fruitful relationship with either side, do we have the skills to do this? Have we even got an inkling of where to start? If the US were to enter into some kind of TPP type conversation with the UK alone would we stand any hope of not loosing our shirts?

Cobnapint

8,598 posts

150 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
fblm said:
FredClogs said:
The benefits are:-

1) "Guaranteed" and open access, free of tariff or need for negotiation, to the worlds largest market place.

2) Guaranteed and open access to the worlds largest and most skilled labour market.

3) Increased and higher level of judicial recourse for UK citizens adding extra checks and balances to our domestic legislature.

4) Increased cooperation and joint working with EU brethren on law enforcement and criminal intelligence.

5) The route to possible further integration, i.e joint armed services, joint social welfare and health care provisions etc... ect...

You could have some of those outside but they'd never be guaranteed and you certainly can't move towards a greater federal europe without being in.
rofl
Have another. laugh

Deluded doesn't cover it.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
That's a bit obtuse, I said "guaranteed" access, I even highlighted the word for you.

If we take for example the US relationship with the EU (one that post BREXIT we'd presumably hope to replicate) you'll see it's far from straightforward, with the formation of the Transatlantic Economic Council (a set of faceless unelected bureaucrats btw) and horrible diplomatic pit falls, like various embargo supports and even the bugging of Mrs Merkels office. The whole things is subject to change at a moments notice and one false step could land either party with a shoe full of turd.

And that's the US - EU who do some $1trillion dollars of trade a year, our small island would be left having to double up on these political and diplomatic efforts to even begin to start a fruitful relationship with either side, do we have the skills to do this? Have we even got an inkling of where to start? If the US were to enter into some kind of TPP type conversation with the UK alone would we stand any hope of not loosing our shirts?
We don't need some kind of convoluted TPP/TTIP type arrangement to trade with people. That's exactly what we're trying to get away from with the EU.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
The only reason the banks want ttip is to get though eu market protections.

In an ideal world, you have no trade deals, no tariffs, nothing.


TEKNOPUG

18,844 posts

204 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
fblm said:
This all rather misses the point that you may well have open and free market access to the EU but you do so at the expense of open and free market access to the rest of the world. Regardless of how big the EU is as a single entity it is not as big as the rest of the world. Secondly, open and free market access to the EU is not dependent on EU membership so listing it as a benefit is like those car ads that helpfully still say ABS and central locking.
That's a bit obtuse, I said "guaranteed" access, I even highlighted the word for you.

If we take for example the US relationship with the EU (one that post BREXIT we'd presumably hope to replicate) you'll see it's far from straightforward, with the formation of the Transatlantic Economic Council (a set of faceless unelected bureaucrats btw) and horrible diplomatic pit falls, like various embargo supports and even the bugging of Mrs Merkels office. The whole things is subject to change at a moments notice and one false step could land either party with a shoe full of turd.

And that's the US - EU who do some $1trillion dollars of trade a year, our small island would be left having to double up on these political and diplomatic efforts to even begin to start a fruitful relationship with either side, do we have the skills to do this? Have we even got an inkling of where to start? If the US were to enter into some kind of TPP type conversation with the UK alone would we stand any hope of not loosing our shirts?
Post BREXIT, the UK would be the EU's biggest export market - bigger than the US. So are you saying that the EU would not have the best interests of it's member States when negotiating trade deals with the UK? Or are you saying that the EU is incapable of negotiating satisfactory trade deals - "horrible pit falls"? Is the EU incompetent, bureaucratically unmanageable or wilfully neglectful of it Members interests? It doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for the EU to manage global trade on our behalf.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
We don't need some kind of convoluted TPP/TTIP type arrangement to trade with people. That's exactly what we're trying to get away from with the EU.
You don't think the US would require something like that to trade with us, that's the point and yet they require these contract, gurantees and agreements with the EU and pacific rim. Hmmm, have you ever dealt with US customs or import/export regs, they love a bit of paper work on the side the Americans do.

Why do you think trade agreements exist if they're not needed?