So who wants to remain in the EU?

[Cobnapint]

A boost for the 'out' campaign....

http://news.sky.com/story/1641269/germanys-merkel-...

[don4l]

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

Why do you think that we need a trade agreement with the US?

I bet that you cannot answer the question, because you know nothing at all about international trade.

I have placed an order on an American supplier today. The goods will be delivered to us on Monday. There will be no duty payable. What difference do you think a "trade deal" would make?

I fax over the order. The goods arrive in three days. I pay a month later.

This is exactly the same as dealing with France or Poland.

I also know a little about international trade.

Very little, it would appear.

Mrr T said:

So a few questions about your transaction with the USA supplier?

I assume the goods will be subject to VAT in the UK. If its a single parcel and customs do not stop it and ask you to pay the VAT before its delivered. You do know its your responsibility to contact customs and and pay the VAT.

What on Earth prompted you to write such rubbish.

1) VAT is paid by the shipper. I have no choice in the matter.

2) As a VAT registered company, we reclaim all of the VAT that we pay. We wouldn't gain anything by not paying the VAT.

You were correct when you said that you knew "little" about international trade.

Mrr T said:

Are the goods subject to any UK regulations, if its an electrical item it will be.

As somebody else has already pointed out, your post is remarkably patronising. So I will not apologise for pointing out the enormous stupidity in your post.

The goods are electrical and are not subject to any UK regulations. We are in the EU, so there are no UK regulations that could have an effect on our ability to import them. The products are CE certified. That is all that matters. Anyone who knew anything about international trade would know this.

Mrr T said:

If they are subject to any UK regulations have you arranged for the item to be inspected by a suitably qualified individual who can confirm in writing the item meets UK regulations? If not I hope you do not plan to sell the item, which would be a criminal offence, or to use the item in your business. Using an item in your business which had not been inspected to ensure it meetst UK standards would be an offence, and if it damaged anyone would invalidate any insurance policies which might have covered any claim for liability.

Good grief!

You really are going off the deep end.

There are no UK regulations. There are EU standards.

We have been in business since 1992. We aren't engaged in any criminal activity.

Your post is so unhinged that I am left wondering about your international trade experience. Do you export stolen cars to West Africa?

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

In fact, I can think of an instance where trading with Europe would become easier if we leave.

At the moment, if I sell something outside the EU, I don't charge VAT. There is no VAT on exports.

If I sell something a VAT registered business in the EU, I also do not have to charge VAT. However, I do have to get their VAT number. I also have to keep a record of such transactions, and report them separately. So, believe it or not, it is easier for me to sell something to the US than to France.

More questions. Are the goods you sell in the EU subject to any EU regulations? If they are I hope if we leave the EU you either get a suitably qualified institution in the country of the purchaser to inspect the goods and provide written documentation that the goods meet EU standards. If you want to avoid the costs of doing that in each individual EU country you can set up a entity registered in the EU and then regulatory approval in that country would cover the whole of the EU.

[sigh]

[dandarez]

Best laugh I've had so far this year!
Mrr T has just shown what he knows about business. Sweet FA!

You gave him enough rope don4l, and he utterly and totally hung himself!

Trying to be clever to someone who's been trading since 1992. What a fool.

Wonder if he can enlighten me where I've been going wrong? ...since 1987!

Clueless idiot.

[FiF]

It was almost as funny as that poster taking Breadvan72 to task and accusing him of being an amateur lawyer. Who was it now? Oh yes iirc it was MrrT.

[don4l]

FiF said:

It was almost as funny as that poster taking Breadvan72 to task and accusing him of being an amateur lawyer. Who was it now? Oh yes iirc it was MrrT.

Could we have a linky please?

There isn't much on the telly tonight.

[FiF]

don4l said:

FiF said:

It was almost as funny as that poster taking Breadvan72 to task and accusing him of being an amateur lawyer. Who was it now? Oh yes iirc it was MrrT.

Could we have a linky please?

There isn't much on the telly tonight.

It was on the Beavis thread in SP&L. It had been going on for a few pages back and forth, halfway down this page you get the point where BV has basically told him he knows bugger all, and T returns the accusation that BV has nothing to back up his legal opinions.

On the next page BV declares what he is, and T accuses him of merely being part of a parking enforcement company. Rest of us had been quietly, and some openly, sniggering at the hole being dug. Go back a few pages from the point linked if you want to see the full level of numptyism on display. Warning thread otherwise quite tedious at times.

[don4l]

FiF said:

don4l said:

FiF said:

It was almost as funny as that poster taking Breadvan72 to task and accusing him of being an amateur lawyer. Who was it now? Oh yes iirc it was MrrT.

Could we have a linky please?

There isn't much on the telly tonight.

It was on the Beavis thread in SP&L. It had been going on for a few pages back and forth, halfway down this page you get the point where BV has basically told him he knows bugger all, and T returns the accusation that BV has nothing to back up his legal opinions.

On the next page BV declares what he is, and T accuses him of merely being part of a parking enforcement company. Rest of us had been quietly, and some openly, sniggering at the hole being dug. Go back a few pages from the point linked if you want to see the full level of numptyism on display. Warning thread otherwise quite tedious at times.

Thank you!

I enjoyed that.

Mrr T got trashed by an Irish bogtrotter.

Wonderful!

[Mario149]

TEKNOPUG said:

Mario149 said:

TEKNOPUG said:

So it's been 24 hours since I asked if anyone could provide factual evidence of why being part of the EU is beneficial to the UK and how those benefits would be lost if we left but still no takers. Have we drawn a blank? It's quite difficult to form a considered opinion without any.

There are no "facts" on either side, that's the problem. It's all supposition, assumption, best guesses of what might happen if etc

You quoted 1.6% of our Public Spending so I presume that is a "fact"? I'm not asking you to predict the future, I'm asking for facts about how being a member of the EU benefits the UK. 1.6% seems to be a fact as to how our membership is detrimental. There are plenty of facts as to why our membership is detrimental and why the EU as a whole is a bad thing.

Very few if any as to why it's a good thing for the UK. So accepting that no one knows what will happen if we leave (or indeed remain for that matter), I can only go on what we know as facts in the present. And that would suggest that's it's detrimental to the UK to be a member of the EU. If you have some factual evidence as to why our current membership of the EU is desirable, I'd love to hear them, so I can make an informed decision.

1.6% was the published figure I could find so it is a "fact" now. But I'm happy to admit that it might go up or down if we stay in, but it's unlikely to change vastly. But, I'm not using the 1.6% as a reason to stay, you're using it as a reason to leave - fair dos, but you have to prove to me that we will actually keep some or all of that money rather than it getting swallowed up in extra admin costs/tariffs/job losses etc of doing business from outside the EU. No one has yet been able to show this convincingly. If they had, we wouldn't be having this conversation and the financial side of the debate would be moot. All of economics is educated guess work at best, so for anyone to try and categorically state we'd be better off out (or in for that matter) is bks.

I've said in other posts I think from an economic PoV we'll be fine either way, hence why I don't seriously argue the economic benefit of the EU. I lean towards staying in the EU for other reasons.

[Mrr T]

don4l said:

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

Why do you think that we need a trade agreement with the US?

I bet that you cannot answer the question, because you know nothing at all about international trade.

I have placed an order on an American supplier today. The goods will be delivered to us on Monday. There will be no duty payable. What difference do you think a "trade deal" would make?

I fax over the order. The goods arrive in three days. I pay a month later.

This is exactly the same as dealing with France or Poland.

I also know a little about international trade.

Very little, it would appear.

Considerably more than you I expect based on your replies below.

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

So a few questions about your transaction with the USA supplier?

I assume the goods will be subject to VAT in the UK. If its a single parcel and customs do not stop it and ask you to pay the VAT before its delivered. You do know its your responsibility to contact customs and and pay the VAT.

What on Earth prompted you to write such rubbish.

1) VAT is paid by the shipper. I have no choice in the matter.

2) As a VAT registered company, we reclaim all of the VAT that we pay. We wouldn't gain anything by not paying the VAT.

You were correct when you said that you knew "little" about international trade.

The goods are coming from the US so they will not pay the VAT. So yes I do know more than you.

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

Are the goods subject to any UK regulations, if its an electrical item it will be.

As somebody else has already pointed out, your post is remarkably patronising. So I will not apologise for pointing out the enormous stupidity in your post.

The goods are electrical and are not subject to any UK regulations. We are in the EU, so there are no UK regulations that could have an effect on our ability to import them. The products are CE certified. That is all that matters. Anyone who knew anything about international trade would know this.

The goods are coming from the US the EU and the US do not have an agreement with the EU to mutually accept certification. So the US CE mark does not mean the goods certified for EU use. You need to do your own testing before use to ensure they meet the regulations.

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

If they are subject to any UK regulations have you arranged for the item to be inspected by a suitably qualified individual who can confirm in writing the item meets UK regulations? If not I hope you do not plan to sell the item, which would be a criminal offence, or to use the item in your business. Using an item in your business which had not been inspected to ensure it meetst UK standards would be an offence, and if it damaged anyone would invalidate any insurance policies which might have covered any claim for liability.

Good grief!

You really are going off the deep end.

There are no UK regulations. There are EU standards.

We have been in business since 1992. We aren't engaged in any criminal activity.

The CE standard is not an EU standard it is an international standard.

So are you importing goods requiring a CE mark into the EU from a country with out a treaty to mutually accept standard authorities? If you are are you ensuring the product meets CE standards? If you can answer yes to both these questions you are not committing an offence.

The link below gives guidance, note the section where it is clear its for the importers to ensure the product meets CE standard.

http://www.chinaimportal.com/blog/ce-marking-impor...

don4 said:

Your post is so unhinged that I am left wondering about your international trade experience. Do you export stolen cars to West Africa?
[/quote}]

Why do you have some with CE marks?

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

In fact, I can think of an instance where trading with Europe would become easier if we leave.

At the moment, if I sell something outside the EU, I don't charge VAT. There is no VAT on exports.

If I sell something a VAT registered business in the EU, I also do not have to charge VAT. However, I do have to get their VAT number. I also have to keep a record of such transactions, and report them separately. So, believe it or not, it is easier for me to sell something to the US than to France.

More questions. Are the goods you sell in the EU subject to any EU regulations? If they are I hope if we leave the EU you either get a suitably qualified institution in the country of the purchaser to inspect the goods and provide written documentation that the goods meet EU standards. If you want to avoid the costs of doing that in each individual EU country you can set up a entity registered in the EU and then regulatory approval in that country would cover the whole of the EU.

[sigh]

So you really really do know very little about international trade.

[Beati Dogu]

British influence in the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwhZtTknFvw

So much better to be on the inside fighting our position than out.

Yeah right.

[Mrr T]

don4l said:

FiF said:

don4l said:

FiF said:

It was almost as funny as that poster taking Breadvan72 to task and accusing him of being an amateur lawyer. Who was it now? Oh yes iirc it was MrrT.

Could we have a linky please?

There isn't much on the telly tonight.

It was on the Beavis thread in SP&L. It had been going on for a few pages back and forth, halfway down this page you get the point where BV has basically told him he knows bugger all, and T returns the accusation that BV has nothing to back up his legal opinions.

On the next page BV declares what he is, and T accuses him of merely being part of a parking enforcement company. Rest of us had been quietly, and some openly, sniggering at the hole being dug. Go back a few pages from the point linked if you want to see the full level of numptyism on display. Warning thread otherwise quite tedious at times.

Thank you!

I enjoyed that.

Mrr T got trashed by an Irish bogtrotter.

Wonderful!

I am not into thrashing but what ever sinks your boat.

I did not reply to your post before because I have had a busy few days.

I have now on a point by point basis.

Can I suggest if you are interested in the subject you research on EUreferendum.com most of what I know about this subject comes from the many posts their covering regulations and recognition of regulations.

[don4l]

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

Why do you think that we need a trade agreement with the US?

I bet that you cannot answer the question, because you know nothing at all about international trade.

I have placed an order on an American supplier today. The goods will be delivered to us on Monday. There will be no duty payable. What difference do you think a "trade deal" would make?

I fax over the order. The goods arrive in three days. I pay a month later.

This is exactly the same as dealing with France or Poland.

I also know a little about international trade.

Very little, it would appear.

Considerably more than you I expect based on your replies below.

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

So a few questions about your transaction with the USA supplier?

I assume the goods will be subject to VAT in the UK. If its a single parcel and customs do not stop it and ask you to pay the VAT before its delivered. You do know its your responsibility to contact customs and and pay the VAT.

What on Earth prompted you to write such rubbish.

1) VAT is paid by the shipper. I have no choice in the matter.

2) As a VAT registered company, we reclaim all of the VAT that we pay. We wouldn't gain anything by not paying the VAT.

You were correct when you said that you knew "little" about international trade.

The goods are coming from the US so they will not pay the VAT. So yes I do know more than you.

The shipping company will pay the VAT before customs release the goods.
They will want to be paid from a deferrment account, or they will demand a cheque on delivery.

Either way, I cannot get my hands on the goods without paying the VAT.

Mrr T said:

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

Are the goods subject to any UK regulations, if its an electrical item it will be.

As somebody else has already pointed out, your post is remarkably patronising. So I will not apologise for pointing out the enormous stupidity in your post.

The goods are electrical and are not subject to any UK regulations. We are in the EU, so there are no UK regulations that could have an effect on our ability to import them. The products are CE certified. That is all that matters. Anyone who knew anything about international trade would know this.

The goods are coming from the US the EU and the US do not have an agreement with the EU to mutually accept certification. So the US CE mark does not mean the goods certified for EU use. You need to do your own testing before use to ensure they meet the regulations.

That is just plain wrong. There are certified testing houses around the world. I just have to satisfy myself that the items have been tested and that the items have passed. I do not have to conduct my own tests. You really shouldn't write such nonsense.

One of our suppliers uses this Taiwanese company:-
http://www.sgs.com.tw/en/Industrial-Manufacturing/...

If you spend a couple of minutes on Google you will find loads of similar companies all over the world.

Mrr T said:

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

If they are subject to any UK regulations have you arranged for the item to be inspected by a suitably qualified individual who can confirm in writing the item meets UK regulations? If not I hope you do not plan to sell the item, which would be a criminal offence, or to use the item in your business. Using an item in your business which had not been inspected to ensure it meetst UK standards would be an offence, and if it damaged anyone would invalidate any insurance policies which might have covered any claim for liability.

Good grief!

You really are going off the deep end.

There are no UK regulations. There are EU standards.

We have been in business since 1992. We aren't engaged in any criminal activity.

The CE standard is not an EU standard it is an international standard.

It is an EEA standard. Read about it here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

Mrr T said:

So are you importing goods requiring a CE mark into the EU from a country with out a treaty to mutually accept standard authorities? If you are are you ensuring the product meets CE standards? If you can answer yes to both these questions you are not committing an offence.

The link below gives guidance, note the section where it is clear its for the importers to ensure the product meets CE standard.

http://www.chinaimportal.com/blog/ce-marking-impor...

don4 said:

Your post is so unhinged that I am left wondering about your international trade experience. Do you export stolen cars to West Africa?
[/quote}]

Why do you have some with CE marks?

don4 said:

Mrr T said:

don4l said:

In fact, I can think of an instance where trading with Europe would become easier if we leave.

At the moment, if I sell something outside the EU, I don't charge VAT. There is no VAT on exports.

If I sell something a VAT registered business in the EU, I also do not have to charge VAT. However, I do have to get their VAT number. I also have to keep a record of such transactions, and report them separately. So, believe it or not, it is easier for me to sell something to the US than to France.

More questions. Are the goods you sell in the EU subject to any EU regulations? If they are I hope if we leave the EU you either get a suitably qualified institution in the country of the purchaser to inspect the goods and provide written documentation that the goods meet EU standards. If you want to avoid the costs of doing that in each individual EU country you can set up a entity registered in the EU and then regulatory approval in that country would cover the whole of the EU.

[sigh]

So you really really do know very little about international trade.

This is getting quite surreal!

[v8250]

Ladies, please be friendly to each other and bring the discussion back on topic; who does want to remain in the EU?

Answer: the Remainians

[Digga]

Beati Dogu said:

British influence in the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwhZtTknFvw

So much better to be on the inside fighting our position than out.

Yeah right.

All of which is explained adequately in this short clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI

[Mrr T]

v8250 said:

Ladies, please be friendly to each other and bring the discussion back on topic; who does want to remain in the EU?

Answer: the Remainians

[Thorodin]

Hopefully, and especially in the media as opposed to inglorious struggles on-line, the arguments will mature into evidential facts that can be relied on. Although it is very early yet, only two days, amazingly little is actually 'known', be it In or Out. Further, there are very few credible observers giving views without an axe being ground.
So far the only way to make one's mind up is to go to the people involved. When you look at those politicians involved in the Out camp there is not even one there that I would have confidence in following an Out vote.
B.Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Grayling, Farage, Galloway. A motley Cap'n Pugwash crew. That ship would sink at the first trade wind. Hope it gets better.

[Octoposse]

Genuinely conflicted.

Much as I loathe the EU - especially its inability to get anything 'big' right, whilst incessantly meddling in the trivial at vast expense - I don't feel like taking a leap into the dark.

I'm not convinced we will have a referendum this year anyway - especially (but not solely) around the migrant crisis I can see things getting so bad so quickly that the EU will be convulsed and Cameron given an excuse to postpone it.

[Scuffers]

Octoposse said:

Genuinely conflicted.

Much as I loathe the EU - especially its inability to get anything 'big' right, whilst incessantly meddling in the trivial at vast expense - I don't feel like taking a leap into the dark.

I'm not convinced we will have a referendum this year anyway - especially (but not solely) around the migrant crisis I can see things getting so bad so quickly that the EU will be convulsed and Cameron given an excuse to postpone it.

does that alone not give you a hint which way to go?

[Mrr T]

don4 said:

The shipping company will pay the VAT before customs release the goods.
They will want to be paid from a deferrment account, or they will demand a cheque on delivery.

Either way, I cannot get my hands on the goods without paying the VAT.

So go back to my original post. I said one of the reasons its easier to import from the EU is because for imports from outside the EU you have to pay the VAT to HMRC before it is released from customs. So now you agree with me.

don4 said:

That is just plain wrong. There are certified testing houses around the world. I just have to satisfy myself that the items have been tested and that the items have passed. I do not have to conduct my own tests. You really shouldn't write such nonsense.

One of our suppliers uses this Taiwanese company:-
http://www.sgs.com.tw/en/Industrial-Manufacturing/...

If you spend a couple of minutes on Google you will find loads of similar companies all over the world.

I never said you cannot out source the job to another company, even one outside the EU. However, as my link says it is the importers responsibility to ensure the product meets the regulations. If you are satisfied they have carried out the correct tests and the product has passed that's good. However, if something goes wrong and its clear the product did not meet the regulations you cannot just rely on saying you have satisfied yourself. You would be asked how have you satisfied yourself. Have you done due diligence on the company applying the CE mark? have you conducted site visits? do you independent check a random sample of products.

don4 said:

It is an EEA standard. Read about it here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

Yes its an EU standard but all CE standards (I believe) start here
http://www.iso.org/iso/home.html

don4 said:

This is getting quite surreal!

Yes.

[Guybrush]

Octoposse said:

Genuinely conflicted.

Much as I loathe the EU - especially its inability to get anything 'big' right, whilst incessantly meddling in the trivial at vast expense - I don't feel like taking a leap into the dark.

I'm not convinced we will have a referendum this year anyway - especially (but not solely) around the migrant crisis I can see things getting so bad so quickly that the EU will be convulsed and Cameron given an excuse to postpone it.

Do you really think it will be a 'leap into the dark' or have you been primed to 'think' this by the inner's propaganda? Just think of countries who are already in the 'dark' who are prospering quite nicely without the giant hand of remote state control. Don't be confined by proximity either, not just Switzerland, but even say Australia who are quite happy to manage their own affairs.