Traffic Management: politics & ideology defeat logic. News?!
Discussion
Jasandjules said:
I truly believe that over the last 20 years the sole aim of Traffic Policy has been to make using a personal car awful.
It's been successful, so far. The initiative near me to allow free parking after 6pm, if implemented, would be one small step in the right direction.Adrian W said:
Junction 7 M11, chaos in the rush hour, always queues, when the lights fail it all flows perfectly.
The thing is, some traffic managers don't notice, possibly they're looking the other way.turbobloke said:
Jasandjules said:
I truly believe that over the last 20 years the sole aim of Traffic Policy has been to make using a personal car awful.
It's been successful, so far. The initiative near me to allow free parking after 6pm, if implemented, would be one small step in the right direction.Adrian W said:
Junction 7 M11, chaos in the rush hour, always queues, when the lights fail it all flows perfectly.
The thing is, some traffic managers don't notice, possibly they're looking the other way.
Type R Tom said:
turbobloke said:
Jasandjules said:
I truly believe that over the last 20 years the sole aim of Traffic Policy has been to make using a personal car awful.
It's been successful, so far. The initiative near me to allow free parking after 6pm, if implemented, would be one small step in the right direction.Adrian W said:
Junction 7 M11, chaos in the rush hour, always queues, when the lights fail it all flows perfectly.
The thing is, some traffic managers don't notice, possibly they're looking the other way.turbobloke said:
No, we can't. We need more common sense and logic in traffic management and less politicking around anti-car ideology, exactly as per the article. Let's not kid ourselves that it doesn't exist - a Reading traffic management bigwig was interviewed after his appointment and commented that it was his job to make car use as unpleasant as possible. Reading residents may not have heard this but may have noticed the results. Then there's the Highways Agency bod who described car commuters as 'the lowest of the low'.
I'm a Reading resident and can confirm from several differing sources that it's been the policy in Reading for years to make the use of the car so unpleasant that it forces people onto the buses. The plan apparently was to reduce the average car speed to 15mph within Reading so buses could be publicised as being quicker. All it's done in reality is made crossing or accessing Reading a no-go option, most Reading residents will just use the M4 to get around. Some of the changes they've introduced over the last 15 years are truly staggering, and they almost managed to jump the shark with the plan to make the ring road in the centre of Reading into a 1 way ring. The publicity to that plan almost ended with civil unrest until it was quietly shelved and the bicycle riding, no car license transport manager replaced! 
I think some of the problem is that the traffic managers want to be seen to be doing something - so in many cases they will see that the answer is "more" rather than less, adding paint and lights all the time without really thinking whether removing them would be a good solution.
Here in Bath we have a junction where it was suggested that the "no road paint" solution might help to slow things down. So it was tried, for about two weeks. The traffic managers decided that they didn't like the idea of car drivers having to think so introduced some non compliant paint which made it look a bit like a mini roundabout. The last thing I saw is that they've added a zebra crossing. It's now a complete mess; some people treat it like a mini roundabout, other people (completely correctly) straight line it.
Here in Bath we have a junction where it was suggested that the "no road paint" solution might help to slow things down. So it was tried, for about two weeks. The traffic managers decided that they didn't like the idea of car drivers having to think so introduced some non compliant paint which made it look a bit like a mini roundabout. The last thing I saw is that they've added a zebra crossing. It's now a complete mess; some people treat it like a mini roundabout, other people (completely correctly) straight line it.
Part of the reason people use the car as opposed to public transport is the unreliability of public transport, and the limited fallback position if it fails. If you look at cities where there is a decent network, and if one bus/ tram / whatever misses then another one will be along in a few minutes then the transportation is often full at rush hour. Outside those areas where the next one will be another hour, if you're lucky, only need a few torrid trips to make the decision stuff it.
Anecdotal example, one person in the household could easily commute to near the county city by bus. The stop is about a half mile walk, OK dark roads and footpaths in winter, but doable with a torch. Bus leaves 7:30ish and gets them there so a walk to the office ensure a reasonably certain 8:30 start. The price of a weekly ticket is less than the fuel for two days commute.
Should be a shoe in. Except having tried it for a few weeks the return service is so unreliable, and the bus company so difficult to contact regarding the current situation, that after two weeks where out of the ten days, on four evenings someone still had to turn out and do a pick up at short notice is it any wonder that folks say stuff it.
Complaints to the bus company get nowhere, their traffic enquiries office isn't manned outside short office hours, they try and communicate issues over social media, but that's only updated during said short office hours. Finally they are being investigated about poor service, 3rd investigation afaik, nothing will change.
So now it's a case of sitting in a queue with 50% of the road taken by an empty bus lane, playing the game of will a bus pass us today. One did on Wednesday last week, first time in 2016.
Anecdotal example, one person in the household could easily commute to near the county city by bus. The stop is about a half mile walk, OK dark roads and footpaths in winter, but doable with a torch. Bus leaves 7:30ish and gets them there so a walk to the office ensure a reasonably certain 8:30 start. The price of a weekly ticket is less than the fuel for two days commute.
Should be a shoe in. Except having tried it for a few weeks the return service is so unreliable, and the bus company so difficult to contact regarding the current situation, that after two weeks where out of the ten days, on four evenings someone still had to turn out and do a pick up at short notice is it any wonder that folks say stuff it.
Complaints to the bus company get nowhere, their traffic enquiries office isn't manned outside short office hours, they try and communicate issues over social media, but that's only updated during said short office hours. Finally they are being investigated about poor service, 3rd investigation afaik, nothing will change.
So now it's a case of sitting in a queue with 50% of the road taken by an empty bus lane, playing the game of will a bus pass us today. One did on Wednesday last week, first time in 2016.
speedyguy said:
Mr Cassini was involved in the implementation of this https://youtu.be/-vzDDMzq7d0 locally to where I live.
It seems to be a love it or hate. It scheme it seems the majority of local people love it but a VOCAL minority try to do it down. Also visitors find it very confusing for some reason
http://www.poyntonforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&am...
Although I was pretty sceptical at first the scheme works a dream apart from selfish Cocks parking on the pavement due to sheer braindeadness.
This is the general area which includes 'shared space' which gets a big thumbs up for me
https://youtu.be/FUyo8_yhH90
Bloody hell Speedyguy, do you work for the council? It's far from a 'vocal minority' against the Poynton scheme. The crossroads is a nightmare. It's certainly different from what was there before but the London Road traffic jams are just the same. All Cheshire East* have done is add an element of confusion to the mix. It doesn't work.It seems to be a love it or hate. It scheme it seems the majority of local people love it but a VOCAL minority try to do it down. Also visitors find it very confusing for some reason
http://www.poyntonforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&am...
Although I was pretty sceptical at first the scheme works a dream apart from selfish Cocks parking on the pavement due to sheer braindeadness.
This is the general area which includes 'shared space' which gets a big thumbs up for me
https://youtu.be/FUyo8_yhH90
Edited by speedyguy on Saturday 6th February 21:44
Worryingly, I recently attended a meeting with someone influential in such matters who seemed to be advocating the adoption of a similar 'solution' in Marple (the bellend concerned having moved into the village two years ago and immediately set about trying to change things).
An example of Cheshire East Council's (worth a Google for comedy bent shenanigans) handiwork.
Edited by Roy Lime on Sunday 7th February 11:18
davepoth said:
It looks like the road trough the middle of Poynton is not far off a trunk road judging by the number of trucks involved. It's not a sensible choice for shared space as a result.
It's the main Manchester to Macclesfield route (A523). What the council has done is abject stupidity. Shared space as a concept might be appropriate for Poynton's shopping street, Park Lane (a quiet little thoroughfare that runs off into the countryside), but certainly not for the junction in question. Most of those who use it regularly hate it.Type R Tom said:
The problem is the average trip length in this country is 7 miles, easily a distance that could be completed by another means be it public transport or cycling.
I suspect that distance, whilst important - is not the only driving factor in the decision as to whether to take the car.IMO time is just as important, as is cost. Some journeys are impossible to make by the methods you suggest due to the lack of availability of public transport.
The fact of the matter is - successive governments have made policy that has driven (excuse the pun) people towards using their cars more and more. You have to reverse those policies before you expect people to give up their cars.
Type R Tom said:
I can’t comment on the specific examples as I don’t know them but the way I see it is there is not enough space in this country for everyone to drive individual cars in every possible situation so something needs to be done to encourage other means.
People don't use their cars for every possible journey. When the trains and tubes go on strike traffic increases, how are those extra drivers travelling the rest of the time? The car parks at commuter stations near London are jammed most days, because motorists have made a rational decision that train rather than car is preferable for the bulk of their journey. The notion that everyone with a car drives everywhere because they are too stupid to think of alternatives is absurd.Why does 'something have to be done'? Why can't you leave people to make their own decisions? A) People take congestion into account when deciding between transport modes so congestion will find it's own level. B) If you really believe people don't do this and will carry on using cars until there is total gridlock, then how in blazes is reducing road space going to discourage car use?
Type R Tom said:
We need to get people out of cars for a lot of their journeys (benefits health too) and you feel the current methods are wrong, so what do we do?
No, we don't. If you really believed what you are saying, you would want the same warped logic applied to trains.
But nobody is so daft as to say that train commuters have no right to complain about overcrowding because they contribute to it. Or that there is no point in laying on extra carriages because they will only fill up with passengers. Or that millions must be spent reducing passenger capacity because increased overcrowding will discourage train use and thereby reduce overcrowding.
king nightmare they've made of that.Dr Jekyll said:
People don't use their cars for every possible journey. When the trains and tubes go on strike traffic increases, how are those extra drivers travelling the rest of the time? The car parks at commuter stations near London are jammed most days, because motorists have made a rational decision that train rather than car is preferable for the bulk of their journey. The notion that everyone with a car drives everywhere because they are too stupid to think of alternatives is absurd.
Well said.
Dr Jekyll said:
Why does 'something have to be done'? Why can't you leave people to make their own decisions? A) People take congestion into account when deciding between transport modes so congestion will find it's own level. B) If you really believe people don't do this and will carry on using cars until there is total gridlock, then how in blazes is reducing road space going to discourage car use?
Exactly. Dr Jekyll said:
Type R Tom said:
We need to get people out of cars for a lot of their journeys (benefits health too) and you feel the current methods are wrong, so what do we do?
No, we don't. If you really believed what you are saying, you would want the same warped logic applied to trains.
Dr Jekyll said:
But nobody is so daft as to say that train commuters have no right to complain about overcrowding because they contribute to it. Or that there is no point in laying on extra carriages because they will only fill up with passengers. Or that millions must be spent reducing passenger capacity because increased overcrowding will discourage train use and thereby reduce overcrowding.
All spot on, an excellent post with more logic than current transport planning has seen in decades. Also, with regards to our well-being, about which transport planners nationwide are full of anxiety every waking hour, car use makes people healthy compared to public transport use.
Article reporting on a study from the Medical Research Council said:
According to a government-funded survey, driving is good for you. The evidence was unearthed last year and is reported by the Medical Research Council’s social and public health sciences unit in Glasgow. Ironically, the purpose of the report was to reduce our reliance on private cars and to promote public transport, but instead it found that car drivers benefited from increased self-esteem, sense of security and control over their lives.
All these factors lead to increased psychological wellbeing, which has been linked to better general health and happiness. The report has allowed for different economic factors, so this is not simply about car owners being wealthier and therefore happier.
Anne Ellaway, the psychologist who wrote the report with her colleagues, claims that there has always been a contradiction between the use of cars and health. “It is widely accepted that driving can lead to increased obesity, road traffic accidents and pollution,” she says.
“The paradox is that research has also shown that car owners are healthier and live longer. This has been explained away by saying that car owners come from a higher social class and have bigger incomes, which are connected to better health.
“[But] after eliminating the effects of age, social class and income, we found drivers to have better general health and less depression than people who used public transport.”
The study produced psychological profiles of the participants based on measurements in three key areas: self-esteem, control over one’s environment and security. In all areas those who had access to a car were found to generate higher scores than those who did not.
The results also measured the differences between male and female responses. The findings emphasised the practical rather than symbolic importance of cars in women’s lives. In particular it was found that security and a sense of being in control of their lives were more important factors for women, while for men the most important area was a sense of self-esteem.
Edmund King, executive director of the RAC Foundation, welcomed the findings. “We only hear about the negative side of cars,” he says. “Congestion, pollution and car crime are important but the car has given us immense freedom. Driving gives everyone a fuller life, particularly when they get older. I am not surprised it is good for your health.”
The findings are also backed by Dr Peter Marsh, a psychologist and co-director of the Social Issues Research Centre in Oxford. “We do get psychological satisfaction from being drivers. If a man has a good car, he would think better of himself, and that is good for his health,” he says. “It is one of the few areas where we are in control of our lives. We make all the decisions and we are in our own territory.”
Even after 'adjusting' the data, the superior health benefits of car use remained. All these factors lead to increased psychological wellbeing, which has been linked to better general health and happiness. The report has allowed for different economic factors, so this is not simply about car owners being wealthier and therefore happier.
Anne Ellaway, the psychologist who wrote the report with her colleagues, claims that there has always been a contradiction between the use of cars and health. “It is widely accepted that driving can lead to increased obesity, road traffic accidents and pollution,” she says.
“The paradox is that research has also shown that car owners are healthier and live longer. This has been explained away by saying that car owners come from a higher social class and have bigger incomes, which are connected to better health.
“[But] after eliminating the effects of age, social class and income, we found drivers to have better general health and less depression than people who used public transport.”
The study produced psychological profiles of the participants based on measurements in three key areas: self-esteem, control over one’s environment and security. In all areas those who had access to a car were found to generate higher scores than those who did not.
The results also measured the differences between male and female responses. The findings emphasised the practical rather than symbolic importance of cars in women’s lives. In particular it was found that security and a sense of being in control of their lives were more important factors for women, while for men the most important area was a sense of self-esteem.
Edmund King, executive director of the RAC Foundation, welcomed the findings. “We only hear about the negative side of cars,” he says. “Congestion, pollution and car crime are important but the car has given us immense freedom. Driving gives everyone a fuller life, particularly when they get older. I am not surprised it is good for your health.”
The findings are also backed by Dr Peter Marsh, a psychologist and co-director of the Social Issues Research Centre in Oxford. “We do get psychological satisfaction from being drivers. If a man has a good car, he would think better of himself, and that is good for his health,” he says. “It is one of the few areas where we are in control of our lives. We make all the decisions and we are in our own territory.”
There's no evidence that not using their car would stop people eating too many burgers and drinking too much fizzy sugar, sitting on the sofa, or indeed sitting on a bus or train. That MRC research was from a different era, if the same investigation was undertaken today then the people paying the piper would expect the results to play their tune.
Wills2 said:
Turning left on a red light would be a start.
Bus lanes, all they seem to do in my local area is cut the available road capacity by 50% at the most important times delaying everyone's journey, haven't they realised we're not getting out of our cars and on the buses yet?
Same with the silly 2+ lanes they put in Leeds and on the M606 again they just managed to create more delays with no one in any meaningful way changing their habits, they have even blacked out the signs on the M606 so another utter waste of everyone's time and money.
They created a one system in a Otley that lasted a few weeks until they saw what utter chaos they had caused and changed it back, but never mind plenty more money where that came from.
The signs are temporarily blacked out due to the drainage works going on at Chain Bar roundabout which has lanes closed off reducing capacity. They opened up the 2+ lane for the M62 to relieve the queues at peak periods from Bradford. Once the work is complete it will go back to being a 2+ lane. I know all this because I'm currently working on the project at Chain Bar. Bus lanes, all they seem to do in my local area is cut the available road capacity by 50% at the most important times delaying everyone's journey, haven't they realised we're not getting out of our cars and on the buses yet?
Same with the silly 2+ lanes they put in Leeds and on the M606 again they just managed to create more delays with no one in any meaningful way changing their habits, they have even blacked out the signs on the M606 so another utter waste of everyone's time and money.
They created a one system in a Otley that lasted a few weeks until they saw what utter chaos they had caused and changed it back, but never mind plenty more money where that came from.
Personally I think the 2+ lane should be open to all traffic as it would greatly reduce congestion at peak periods as most of the traffic is heading for the M62 east.
Jasandjules said:
I truly believe that over the last 20 years the sole aim of Traffic Policy has been to make using a personal car awful.
This does appear to be what is happening, glad it's not just me wondering this. Certainly around london there seems to be a policy of not improving roads (for the motorist) and in many cases redesigning junctions to create more congestion/less flow.Having moved from inner london almost to the M25 I'm stuck in the commuter trap, as I'm a sparks and need a van, can someone ask the likes of jenny jones, boris johnson (they're all as bad as each other for this petty, infantile anti-motorist policy that is actually hypocritically poisoning us through creating more congestion) to please show me the public transport alternative that moves me and all my tools from home to several job sites in a day?
Not unusual on a bad day to take 2 hours to do 12 miles into the city -at 6 mph average- and I'm really thinking I should jack it in. Then when you get there you can't park because of more anti-motorist BS- tradies like me are employing people to drive their vans round the block all day while they're on a job as it's easier than trying to jump through the hoops required to park the thing!
Ironically one of my biggest inner city clients is a chain of bicycle shops - they couldn't exist to mend your punctures etc without the likes of me to service their electrical needs- yet boris johnson, jenny jones and their ilk are gleefully trying to do all they can to prevent me doing that- how does that work? I'm charging them what seems daft amounts of money to counter all the artificially created time, stress and cost of getting to their stores yet it often seems like it's just not worth the brainache.
hairyben said:
Then when you get there you can't park because of more anti-motorist BS- tradies like me are employing people to drive their vans round the block all day while they're on a job as it's easier than trying to jump through the hoops required to park the thing!
Jeez! That's bad, I stopped using London venues for conferencing and F2F training well over a decade ago; that experience is far worse than anything I experienced back in the day. I've already mentioned the phenomenon of cars circulating to find one of the few free parking spaces that may exist in the ever fewer free parking sites, but circulating all day because it's impossible to park is a massive indictment of the anti-car anti-enterprise intelligent fools in TfL and elswhere (that's not aimed at any individual).Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff