So the scaremongering has started in earnest...

[Scuffers]

AJS- said:

andy43 said:

Roaming charges. FFS. Is that the best they can do?

It's almost comical isn't it? The way they wheel this one out as though it was a crowning achievement of half a century of subverting national democracy and self-governance at massive expense.

for £55m a day, we could all have free mobile phones for life.

and now the french have directly answered CMD's bullst:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...

[Thorodin]

People rarely have the vision to vote for a 'future' and more often than not vote because of an unsatisfactory past and a hopeless present. There is ample evidence, in fact it abounds, to confirm the crookedness, dishonesty, political chicanery and blatant lying by the political elite in EU to guarantee an out vote. Given Cameron's decision to campaign in advance while banning any internal argument he has clumsily identified with the Eurocrats and deserves to be ignored.

[turbobloke]

Thorodin said:

People rarely have the vision to vote for a 'future' and more often than not vote because of an unsatisfactory past and a hopeless present. There is ample evidence, in fact it abounds, to confirm the crookedness, dishonesty, political chicanery and blatant lying by the political elite in EU to guarantee an out vote. Given Cameron's decision to campaign in advance while banning any internal argument he has clumsily identified with the Eurocrats and deserves to be ignored.

Well said.

[loafer123]

Jonesy23 said:

It's a bit like Boris. Some people think he's stupid. Other people think he's a clever person occasionally pretending to be stupid. Closer access suggests someone who actually is a bit thick but cunning, and benefits from an excellent education plus good contacts. The mess in his private life gives a better idea of what he's like than his political career does.

A quick look at Wikipedia confirms he got a King's Scholarship to Eton and a Scholarship to Balliol College, Oxford, so "a bit thick" is highly unlikely to be an accurate view.

Cunning seems to be more accurate, though.

[Blackpuddin]

loafer123 said:

Jonesy23 said:

It's a bit like Boris. Some people think he's stupid. Other people think he's a clever person occasionally pretending to be stupid. Closer access suggests someone who actually is a bit thick but cunning, and benefits from an excellent education plus good contacts. The mess in his private life gives a better idea of what he's like than his political career does.

A quick look at Wikipedia confirms he got a King's Scholarship to Eton and a Scholarship to Balliol College, Oxford, so "a bit thick" is highly unlikely to be an accurate view.

Cunning seems to be more accurate, though.

Thick but cunning is a depressingly and dangerously accurate job description for most politicians.

[CrutyRammers]

powerstroke said:

I just cannot understand how someone as stupid as CMD has got into the position of leader of our little Island nation

That I can understand, but I don't understand why he's put himself in this position.
If he wanted to have a legacy as the man who gave the people a choice, he'd surely be neutral to the outcome.
If he really wanted to get out, he'd be campaigning for it.
He seems to gain nothing by giving a referendum and campaigning for in, but taking a massive risk. If we come out, none of the outers will thank him since he was on the other side. If we stay in, the inners will berate him for taking the risk.
Don't get it. But glad it's happening.

[Thorodin]

I said earlier that he was clumsy. I should have added stupid. He fought tooth and nail not to be the PM that allowed Scotland to secede. If there is now to be a Brexit, and his clumsy handling of this latest difficulty has the look of producing an Out vote, Scotland will inevitably demand another referendum and he will relive that earlier nightmare. His clumsiness amounts to ineptitude and probably is born of his Entitlement-based vanity. He is unfortunately, and typical of the stereotype, insouciant.

[ATG]

Scuffers said:

alfie2244 said:

fido said:

Then just shut the tunnel! How difficult can that be? It's a fk1ng tube with two ends!

Might as well shut the ports while we're at it..........after all there will be no trade, tourism etc as it will all disappear if we leave the EU.

just how much tourism actually comes through the tunnel to start with?

I would bet most visitors to the UK fly in.

And why is it so hard to vet train passengers any more than airline passengers?

Our basic mistake was having the channel tunnel's end in France.

For heaven's fking sake. One of the very major benefits of EU membership is HOW EASY IT IS TO TRANSPORT PEOPLE AND GOODS between EU member states. It's a core part of being able to trade cheaply and efficiently with each other.

If you're perfectly happy to make cross channel transportation an expensive, slow, pain in the arse like flying to the US, then fill your boots, but at least recognise the consequences of what you're saying.

[confused_buyer]

ATG said:

For heaven's fking sake. One of the very major benefits of EU membership is HOW EASY IT IS TO TRANSPORT PEOPLE AND GOODS between EU member states. It's a core part of being able to trade cheaply and efficiently with each other.

If you're perfectly happy to make cross channel transportation an expensive, slow, pain in the arse like flying to the US, then fill your boots, but at least recognise the consequences of what you're saying.

I see your point, particularly regarding goods, but I can't recall travelling to Spain being any more difficult in 1985 than it is in 2016. Likewise I can hop on a plane to Switzerland quite easily without needing a Visa.

The thing which makes movement of people easy between EU countries in Schenghen, which (a) we are not part of and (b) appears to be falling apart anyway.

[dandarez]

CrutyRammers said:

powerstroke said:

I just cannot understand how someone as stupid as CMD has got into the position of leader of our little Island nation

That I can understand, but I don't understand why he's put himself in this position.
If he wanted to have a legacy as the man who gave the people a choice, he'd surely be neutral to the outcome.
If he really wanted to get out, he'd be campaigning for it.
He seems to gain nothing by giving a referendum and campaigning for in, but taking a massive risk. If we come out, none of the outers will thank him since he was on the other side. If we stay in, the inners will berate him for taking the risk.
Don't get it. But glad it's happening.

'Before' he became PM, when he was just a common-or-garden politician, ours, here in Witney, he was nothing short of a superb constituency MP. He responded and actioned enough for my family. He was always 'there', which is exactly what we as a constituency wished for. Unlike the previous turncoat Shaun Woodward.

Then he walked into No 10.

What happened to him? My wife is convinced it's a different bloke!

Actually, it is him. He's just a figurehead, like all of them that get there. Do this, do that. Join the Gravy Club.
Let's stop him.

OUT!

[irocfan]

if that Welsh gasbag Kinnock supports it it needs to be carefully looked at at the very least. We handed him his arse in the 80's so he toddles off to the EU gravy-train - horrible

[ATG]

confused_buyer said:

I see your point, particularly regarding goods, but I can't recall travelling to Spain being any more difficult in 1985 than it is in 2016. Likewise I can hop on a plane to Switzerland quite easily without needing a Visa.

The thing which makes movement of people easy between EU countries in Schenghen, which (a) we are not part of and (b) appears to be falling apart anyway.

I wouldn't expect cross channel arrangements to make much difference to a journey to Spain, but if you're going to Paris, Brussels, etc it makes a huge difference. I don't know anyone who would choose to fly to Paris from London on business any more. Just avoiding the transfer in from CdG makes it worthwhile.

Schengen is under strain because of the turmoil in the M.E. but it worked very well for many years and the turmoil in the M.E. will eventually abate. Some aspects of Schengen may be temporarily suspended, but it isn't being axed.

[Pan Pan Pan]

alfie2244 said:

fido said:

Then just shut the tunnel! How difficult can that be? It's a fk1ng tube with two ends!

Might as well shut the ports while we're at it..........after all there will be no trade, tourism etc as it will all disappear if we leave the EU.

Possible but unlikely. The EU sells more goods into the UK than the UK sells into the EU so any drop in trade will hurt the EU more than it will the UK.
Hard to say about tourism, but it seems that for years UK nationals have been flocking to the continent for their holidays. Not sure if the volume of UK tourists going to EU countries matches the number of continental tourists coming into the UK?
Technically incoming continental tourists should (in terms of population / size of countries differences) vastly exceed the number of UK tourists going out, but somehow it just does not seem like that is what is happening??

[wolves_wanderer]

Scaremongering is going to be a feature of the campaign from both sides I would imagine

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...

[alfie2244]

Pan Pan Pan said:

alfie2244 said:

fido said:

Then just shut the tunnel! How difficult can that be? It's a fk1ng tube with two ends!

Might as well shut the ports while we're at it..........after all there will be no trade, tourism etc as it will all disappear if we leave the EU.

Possible but unlikely. The EU sells more goods into the UK than the UK sells into the EU so any drop in trade will hurt the EU more than it will the UK.
Hard to say about tourism, but it seems that for years UK nationals have been flocking to the continent for their holidays. Not sure if the volume of UK tourists going to EU countries matches the number of continental tourists coming into the UK?
Technically incoming continental tourists should (in terms of population / size of countries differences) vastly exceed the number of UK tourists going out, but somehow it just does not seem like that is what is happening??

Can't speak for Fido but my post was tongue in cheek

[confused_buyer]

ATG said:

I wouldn't expect cross channel arrangements to make much difference to a journey to Spain, but if you're going to Paris, Brussels, etc it makes a huge difference. I don't know anyone who would choose to fly to Paris from London on business any more. Just avoiding the transfer in from CdG makes it worthwhile.

Schengen is under strain because of the turmoil in the M.E. but it worked very well for many years and the turmoil in the M.E. will eventually abate. Some aspects of Schengen may be temporarily suspended, but it isn't being axed.

The immigration requirements when travelling between UK & France are the same however you travel.

The current ones when travelling by train were agreed in a treaty between the UK & France when the Channel Tunnel was built and have nothing to do with the EU.

Likewise it is quite possible, and some countries are, to be a member of Schenghen and not the EU.

[fido]

alfie2244 said:

Can't speak for Fido but my post was tongue in cheek

Mine wasn't. I'm not anti-French or anything of the sort, but I do work with them and they are frikin' illogical.