2nd Opinion on Lintel for Patio Door

2nd Opinion on Lintel for Patio Door

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Discussion

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
I don't normally question another trades work but Im a little concerned about a lintel that's been used for my patio door install.

The original timber frame door has been removed for a UPVC patio door. I knew in advance a lintel would be required due to cracked bricks and mortar.

Unfortunately work was done while I wasn't at home and the Mrs informed be no acrow prop was used (brave) and this skinny lintel has been fitted? I was expecting a good heavy duty concrete one to be fitted for a 2.7m span

Anyway pictures paint a million words (excuse the mess as the loung/diner is in the process of being decorated)

Any advice on the lintel used is ok for the job? Im going to take the day off work tommoz and ask some questions while they finish off but for now over to you clever lot!!

Original door



New Door



Lintel Used and Cracks in Brickwork






Slimbull

863 posts

181 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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Inside pictures?

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Wow what a horrendous mess!

What's holding up the internal skin of brickwork?

Is that really expanding foam each end of the lintol?



Edited by don'tbesilly on Wednesday 10th February 19:19

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
The lintel only supports the outer course of bricks. Yep it does look a mess! I've had several windows replaced in property's in the past by different company's and I thought expanding foam and mastic was the norm? Anyway back to the lintel is it up to the job?

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Thought I would add No cracks on the inner wall and the external bricks haven't got any worse in the 2 yrs I've owned the place.

roofer

5,136 posts

210 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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I don't believe I'm seeing a piece of flat bar in there...

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
In other words are you saying that the lintel (if you can call it that) isnt up to the job?

Slimbull

863 posts

181 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
roofer said:
I don't believe I'm seeing a piece of flat bar in there...
Exactly what I thought, hence asking for inside pics.
If there wasnt anything there before, I suppose something it better than nothing.
It could be a 100x100 angle lintel, with the other piece going up in the cavity.

Either way, it's not going to confirm to building regs.

robwilk

818 posts

179 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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Appers to be sitting on quarter of a brick as well.
I would not be happy with that at all.

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
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If it is just flat bar it will just bow downwards over time, surely?

wolfracesonic

6,940 posts

126 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
roofer said:
I don't believe I'm seeing a piece of flat bar in there...
That's what I thought unless they've squeezed some 'L' section in there, somehow. Whatever they've used OP it should be sat on the bricks a minimum of 150mm, not the 50mm you seem to have got.

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
evo97 said:
The lintel only supports the outer course of bricks. Yep it does look a mess! I've had several windows replaced in property's in the past by different company's and I thought expanding foam and mastic was the norm? Anyway back to the lintel is it up to the job?
So was there never a lintol supporting the exterior brickwork?
A pair of timber doors in a frame are not designed to be load bearing, hence the cracked brickwork!

If there was no external lintol, it begs the question is there one picking up the load internally?

The flat bar that's just been installed is in no way sufficient to hold the brickwork above.
In no time at all the PVCU frame will bow and the doors will become inoperable.

There is nothing above the flat bar and brickwork, it's not been dry packed with mortar.

Expanding foam is not capable of taking any load whatsoever, it will compress, and mastic in this application is as much use as a chocolate teapot!

If a Building Control Officer saw that install it would be condemned.

Is your installer FENSA registered?







brman

1,233 posts

108 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
evo97 said:
In other words are you saying that the lintel (if you can call it that) isnt up to the job?
if that bar is really just a flat bar then it is a packing piece, not a lintel. If it is a right angle up into the cavity then it might do something. Can you see into any of the cracks between the bricks to check if it is just flat or not?

just my opinion of course and I am not a structural engineer.....

btw. I had a similar problem in my house- metal windows replaced with wood which then caused cracking as there was no lintel. According to our surveyor it was pretty standard practice to use metal windows to support the outside wall skin without a lintel but wood moved to much to work.
In our case the windows were already fitted so there was not access to the cavity. So they removed a course of bricks to fit a proper steel lintel then replaced the bricks. The lintel is completely hidden by the bricks/mortar.

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Yes it looks just like flat bar by the looks of it? I know they are compromised with the overhang of the lintel due to the conservatory but that should of been spotted on the survey! Surly a full brick length could of been used to sit the lintel on?

Internal picture





evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
Yes they are fensa registered. They fitted my windows and I didn't have any concerns but I'm a little worried with the above!

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
evo97 said:
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Yes it looks just like flat bar by the looks of it? I know they are compromised with the overhang of the lintel due to the conservatory but that should of been spotted on the survey! Surly a full brick length could of been used to sit the lintel on?

Internal picture


Is that expanding foam the only thing that's supporting the flat bar (internal picture)?

Please say there is some brickwork that's hidden by the foam!

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
You have me worried now! I would just stop them continuing in the morning but there isn't any glass installed yet so it's a tad cold in here tonight.

eps

6,272 posts

268 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
What's above the lintel?

Agree with others it looks under-specified - who specified it and what did you contract them to provide?

The lack of end bearings isn't ideal but won't necessarily be a deal breaker (literally) as long as they've done some calculations to work out what the loads involved are.

There should - he says - be a load on the external skin and the internal skin... Both should be supported. External skin will be all the brickwork above it and half the roof load. External skin will either be just the internal masonry above it and also possibly half the floor and half the ceiling (first floor)...

It doesn't look good from the photos.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
eps said:
External skin will be all the brickwork above it and half the roof load. External skin will either be just the internal masonry above it and also possibly half the floor and half the ceiling (first floor)...
Possibly but for the construction that I guess the property is, based on the timber window frame and style of french door, much more normal would be: External skin will be all the brickwork above it and internal skin will either be just the internal masonry above it and half the ceiling (first floor) and possibly half the floor however we digress.

evo97

Original Poster:

126 posts

236 months

Wednesday 10th February 2016
quotequote all
I don't think the timber door was the original the house was built in 66 if that helps with design.