Grassroouts Out Campaign Dates...

[Hoofy]

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Well, I wasn't aware. Can you prove it? What is the real figure for this club? Does business really go down the pan for us if we're out?

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Where were we before we joined the "common market"? Major trading nation for centuries and now we can't stand on our own 2 feet? - my arse.

[TTwiggy]

Hoofy said:

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Well, I wasn't aware. Can you prove it? What is the real figure for this club? Does business really go down the pan for us if we're out?

Can anyone prove the figures either way?

[FredClogs]

alfie2244 said:

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Where were we before we joined the "common market"? Major trading nation for centuries and now we can't stand on our own 2 feet? - my arse.

Yes, largely because of the brutality and expense of two world wars caused by centuries old European discourse and of course the realisation that imperial colonialism and slavery was perhaps not all that great an example to set your kids.

We're an Island nation of 70 million people, increasingly irrelevant to world trade, we have no unique skills other than brewing whisky, making fancy wool sweaters, overly buttered biscuits and moving other peoples money around for them (which in itself is not really unique to London).

If you're still holding on to some Rule Britannia fantasy then I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble, but perhaps try getting out a bit more?

[Funkycoldribena]

FredClogs said:

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Oh how very nice of them.I'm so grateful.

[Username888]

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

It's actually more than than when you factor in the other ad-hoc bills the EU have been sent us, which were paid promptly by Dave.

You get the benefit of paying more for food, more for your clothes, and, the opportunity of paying more tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...

You also get the benefit of knowing that your money will go to help much more poorer EU countries.


All good stuff, however I must say I am a little concerned that the EU books haven't been signed off for a couple of decades, any other normal business owner operating in this way would be in prison by now.

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

alfie2244 said:

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Where were we before we joined the "common market"? Major trading nation for centuries and now we can't stand on our own 2 feet? - my arse.

Yes, largely because of the brutality and expense of two world wars caused by centuries old European discourse and of course the realisation that imperial colonialism and slavery was perhaps not all that great an example to set your kids.

We're an Island nation of 70 million people, increasingly irrelevant to world trade, we have no unique skills other than brewing whisky, making fancy wool sweaters, overly buttered biscuits and moving other peoples money around for them (which in itself is not really unique to London).

If you're still holding on to some Rule Britannia fantasy then I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble, but perhaps try getting out a bit more?

Well being in the EU did wonders for our manufacturing - take the steel industry for example - Brussels certainly took firm action to stop the Chinese subsidised companies dumping their steel on the market ..... they imposed levies on our energy to make ours dearer to produce I do believe - have you spoken to Tata?

eta which is an irony when you consider the EU has it's foundations in coal and steel and formed to stop Germany & France from fighting each other AGAIN.... remind me who are the biggest players in the EU now?

Edited by alfie2244 on Wednesday 17th February 14:52

[Funkycoldribena]

alfie2244 said:

Well being in the EU did wonders for our manufacturing - take the steel industry for example - Brussels certainly took firm action to stop the Chinese subsidised companies dumping their steel on the market ..... they imposed levies on our energy to make ours dearer to produce I do believe - have you spoken to Tata?

I have no doubt in my mind that Fred Clogs has spoken to Tata.What did they say Fred?

[FredClogs]

alfie2244 said:

FredClogs said:

alfie2244 said:

FredClogs said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

Well the £55million figure is a bit of a myth as I'm sure you're aware but what we get is "guaranteed" access to the worlds largest market place and a say in how that market place is administered and organised.

Where were we before we joined the "common market"? Major trading nation for centuries and now we can't stand on our own 2 feet? - my arse.

Yes, largely because of the brutality and expense of two world wars caused by centuries old European discourse and of course the realisation that imperial colonialism and slavery was perhaps not all that great an example to set your kids.

We're an Island nation of 70 million people, increasingly irrelevant to world trade, we have no unique skills other than brewing whisky, making fancy wool sweaters, overly buttered biscuits and moving other peoples money around for them (which in itself is not really unique to London).

If you're still holding on to some Rule Britannia fantasy then I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble, but perhaps try getting out a bit more?

Well being in the EU did wonders for our manufacturing - take the steel industry for example - Brussels certainly took firm action to stop the Chinese subsidised companies dumping their steel on the market ..... they imposed levies on our energy to make ours dearer to produce I do believe - have you spoken to Tata?

So on one hand you want to leave the EU to remove the bureaucracy and heavy handed governmental interference in business (I say you, I don't know but it's what you often hear from the OUT people) and on the other hand you want the EU to impose restrictive import tariffs on goods which would rise the price of basic materials involved in construction etc... and effectively subsidising UK jobs.

The US has effectively used import tarrifs on steel to protect it's internal market, it's not the sort of thing that is conducive to long term cost effectiveness or trade relations.

Tell me, if China are prepared to sell us steel at below cost price - much cheaper than we can make it, why we shouldn't buy it?

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

So on one hand you want to leave the EU to remove the bureaucracy and heavy handed governmental interference in business (I say you, I don't know but it's what you often hear from the OUT people) and on the other hand you want the EU to impose restrictive import tariffs on goods which would rise the price of basic materials involved in construction etc... and effectively subsidising UK jobs.

The US has effectively used import tarrifs on steel to protect it's internal market, it's not the sort of thing that is conducive to long term cost effectiveness or trade relations.

Tell me, if China are prepared to sell us steel at below cost price - much cheaper than we can make it, why we shouldn't buy it?

You just make things up Cloggy....... Leave the EU full stop for a variety of reasons not just bureaucracy, but if it means we have to subsidise UK jobs then yes.

Tell China to keep their cheaper than cost steel, once our manufacturing has disappeared completely they can double the charge and we would have no choice other than to pay.... then they become EU's masters and good old UK an insignificant little island...which is what you think we are now..


Well not if I can do even the slightest thing to stop it happening..... not for me but my grandchildren etc etc

[Hoofy]

Username888 said:

Hoofy said:

Come on then, what do I get for the £55m a day that Britain pays?

It's actually more than than when you factor in the other ad-hoc bills the EU have been sent us, which were paid promptly by Dave.

You get the benefit of paying more for food, more for your clothes, and, the opportunity of paying more tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...

You also get the benefit of knowing that your money will go to help much more poorer EU countries.


All good stuff, however I must say I am a little concerned that the EU books haven't been signed off for a couple of decades, any other normal business owner operating in this way would be in prison by now.

FredClogs, your turn.

[Piersman2]

FredClogs said:

Tell me, if China are prepared to sell us steel at below cost price - much cheaper than we can make it, why we shouldn't buy it?

Personally, because I believe the UK should retain a minimal ability to manufacture basic commodities. Losing the last remaining ability to produce home grown steel is a mistake and shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Now we are exposed as a nation to whatever may happen on the international markets in the future, with no safety net.

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

and on the other hand you want the EU to impose restrictive import tariffs

Looks like the EU failed to carry out even the most basic functions that it was initially set up for....so what do we pay our money for? I ask again - have you spoken to Tata?

"The Treaty also dealt with the commercial policy of the ECSC towards third countries. Although the powers of national governments remained in place, the Community had a number of powers such as setting maximum and minimum rates for customs duties and supervising the granting of import and export licences, as well as the right to be kept informed of commercial agreements relating to coal and steel.

Furthermore, the power of the High Authority prevailed in the fields of dumping, the use by undertakings outside the jurisdiction of the Community of means of competition contrary to the Treaty and substantial increases in imports which could seriously threaten Community production."

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri...

[FredClogs]

Piersman2 said:

FredClogs said:

Tell me, if China are prepared to sell us steel at below cost price - much cheaper than we can make it, why we shouldn't buy it?

Personally, because I believe the UK should retain a minimal ability to manufacture basic commodities. Losing the last remaining ability to produce home grown steel is a mistake and shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Now we are exposed as a nation to whatever may happen on the international markets in the future, with no safety net.

Which is fair enough and honest, it goes against most of what the average UKIP or Tory "Out" person would consider to be correct from a market economics perspective but there's a good deal of anti EU sentiment across the economic spectrum. But you'd have to pay for it and if you wanted to take that route why not do it in conjunction with other European nations and create something like CAP to secure our internal markets and secure jobs?

[Rovinghawk]

FredClogs said:

why not do it in conjunction with other European nations and create something like CAP to secure our internal markets and secure jobs?

Because CAP is a bureaucratic clusterf*ck open to all forms of abuse & responsible for ridiculous distortion of the market, higher prices & massive waste?

[FredClogs]

Rovinghawk said:

FredClogs said:

why not do it in conjunction with other European nations and create something like CAP to secure our internal markets and secure jobs?

Because CAP is a bureaucratic clusterf*ck open to all forms of abuse & responsible for ridiculous distortion of the market, higher prices & massive waste?

And subsidising the steel industry to create jobs and safeguard our national interests wouldn't? I'm all for nationalising utility industries and removing certain products from market forces but I wouldn't start with steel particularly as the steel industry we do have in the UK is foreign owned.

[eatcustard]

FredClogs said:

Rovinghawk said:

FredClogs said:

why not do it in conjunction with other European nations and create something like CAP to secure our internal markets and secure jobs?

Because CAP is a bureaucratic clusterf*ck open to all forms of abuse & responsible for ridiculous distortion of the market, higher prices & massive waste?

And subsidising the steel industry to create jobs and safeguard our national interests wouldn't? I'm all for nationalising utility industries and removing certain products from market forces but I wouldn't start with steel particularly as the steel industry we do have in the UK is foreign owned.

If it was nationalised, it wold be British.

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

And subsidising the steel industry to create jobs and safeguard our national interests wouldn't? I'm all for nationalising utility industries and removing certain products from market forces but I wouldn't start with steel particularly as the steel industry we do have in the UK is foreign owned.

Do I recall Leanne Wood saying "temp nationalisation" on QT?.........sounds ok to me.....wonder if she spoke to Tata?

[FredClogs]

eatcustard said:

FredClogs said:

Rovinghawk said:

FredClogs said:

why not do it in conjunction with other European nations and create something like CAP to secure our internal markets and secure jobs?

Because CAP is a bureaucratic clusterf*ck open to all forms of abuse & responsible for ridiculous distortion of the market, higher prices & massive waste?

And subsidising the steel industry to create jobs and safeguard our national interests wouldn't? I'm all for nationalising utility industries and removing certain products from market forces but I wouldn't start with steel particularly as the steel industry we do have in the UK is foreign owned.

If it was nationalised, it wold be British.

This conversation ideally demonstrates the problem with the out campaigned and a lot of recent support that UKIP have picked up, there is no common base political or economic ideology behind the "grass roots" out campaign. On one hand you've got right leaning economic liberals who believe that the EU is stifling and controlling market forces and on the other hand you've got traditional labour leftist people who believe that the UK should throw up protective sanctions on trade and imports and create some kind of self sustaining walled city (which the whole world will banging on the door of to by our - I don't know what). Both side displaying a suitable level of flag waving and general jingoism to appeal to those unclear enough to have a good think.

I shudder to think what would happen to domestic UK politics were we ever to go for an OUT vote.

[alfie2244]

FredClogs said:

This conversation ideally demonstrates the problem with the out campaigned and a lot of recent support that UKIP have picked up, there is no common base political or economic ideology behind the "grass roots" out campaign. On one hand you've got right leaning economic liberals who believe that the EU is stifling and controlling market forces and on the other hand you've got traditional labour leftist people who believe that the UK should throw up protective sanctions on trade and imports and create some kind of self sustaining walled city (which the whole world will banging on the door of to by our - I don't know what). Both side displaying a suitable level of flag waving and general jingoism to appeal to those unclear enough to have a good think.

I shudder to think what would happen to domestic UK politics were we ever to go for an OUT vote.

Yes but it is the fact that it is the EU doing the stifling and controlling that is the problem...the UK is more than capable of doing this itself should it wish to do so...can you not see that?

It may help if you had a look at this for a few hours.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary.html

Edited by alfie2244 on Wednesday 17th February 17:57