Hillsborough Inquest

[V8 Fettler]

RottenIcons said:

Civil Engineer (involved in the design stage of a modern Football Stadium) hat on for a moment.

The reality of the flow dynamics of crowds was until a breakthrough research paper of 1993 very much non-existent and guesswork ruled the day, the paper of 1993 changed everything overnight, I was fortunate in getting the paper in time to affect the design of the crowd control measures on our Halo Project.

I can tell you that almost all the measures are actually very counter-intuitive and seems to be 'totally wrong', but they work, they really work. It is just foolish to compare old Stadia to anything built since that date, there is no basis point for comparison. Hillsborough could have been made immensely safer had the research been done years earlier, I have seen the film/video of the Leppings Lane entrances and approaches and for a few thousand pounds (yes, that little!) a good Civil Engineer with a working knowledge of the principles outlined in 1993 could make it a dozen times safer than it was at anytime in it's existence.

I'll remove my Civil engineers hat now, it still fits though!

The Romans could design for crowd control, see how quickly the Colosseum could be vacated.

[RottenIcons]

V8 Fettler said:

RottenIcons said:

Civil Engineer (involved in the design stage of a modern Football Stadium) hat on for a moment.

The reality of the flow dynamics of crowds was until a breakthrough research paper of 1993 very much non-existent and guesswork ruled the day, the paper of 1993 changed everything overnight, I was fortunate in getting the paper in time to affect the design of the crowd control measures on our Halo Project.

I can tell you that almost all the measures are actually very counter-intuitive and seems to be 'totally wrong', but they work, they really work. It is just foolish to compare old Stadia to anything built since that date, there is no basis point for comparison. Hillsborough could have been made immensely safer had the research been done years earlier, I have seen the film/video of the Leppings Lane entrances and approaches and for a few thousand pounds (yes, that little!) a good Civil Engineer with a working knowledge of the principles outlined in 1993 could make it a dozen times safer than it was at anytime in it's existence.

I'll remove my Civil engineers hat now, it still fits though!

The Romans could design for crowd control, see how quickly the Colosseum could be vacated.

Yes, and for many years we copied their designs or rather their lack of design, Hillsborough is just the same as any classical venue.

The difference was two-fold, first the Roman venues were not ticketed and payment was voluntary or not needed at all for most of the time. It was free. So they had no bottle-necks, look at the Leppings Lane entrances and try to find anything that even vaguely resembles such structures or facilities on the Ancient stadia. None are to be found. Second the stadia were policed by soldiers and a sort of martial law existed, entrances were nominated, named, by the alphabet, so no-one just ran and stood where they wished Joe Bloggs entered in sector 'B' and if your best friend was Billy Smith then there were concentric circlulatories within to allow people to meet up. They were immensely complex structures. The enormous sails that shaded the spectators from the fierce sun did occasionally snap their main-masts and evacuations were very common as a result of the collapse and it seems serious injury free.

Had the Romans installed turnstiles with payments, had an unruly assembly regime, no legionnaires and goals at each end of the stadium with their naturally highly coveted seats then they'd have lost hundreds of lives too.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we Engineers are a rum lot and just call things out in plain voice, we are irritating bast's.

Edited by RottenIcons on Wednesday 27th April 14:12

[mickk]

RottenIcons said:

Had the Romans installed turnstiles with payments, had an unruly assembly regime, no legionnaires and goals at end end of the stadium with their naturally highly coveted seats then they'd have lost hundreds of lives too.

Plus the lions would have took a few.

Sorry.

[RottenIcons]

mickk said:

RottenIcons said:

Had the Romans installed turnstiles with payments, had an unruly assembly regime, no legionnaires and goals at end end of the stadium with their naturally highly coveted seats then they'd have lost hundreds of lives too.

Plus the lions would have took a few.

Sorry.

Yep. At the risk of trying everyone's patience here it is really worth looking at how the animals were penned and circulated so that they could appear at any of a dozen or so entrances, they were taunted with castration straps (think really painful stuff for a bloke) when they were in their circulatories and the noises from the openings must have been terrifying all of itself, the sound would come out of every opening, amplified to almost deafening, internal gates meant that some times the Lions would emerge (in pain and really f-ing angry I imagine) from perhaps right in front of the poor sods about to be ripped apart and the crowd would see the stark fear in them, or perhaps the lions might come at the from behind them so the crowd might watch in awe as the animals stalked the shields that partially hid them.

Now THAT is a cruel spectacle, beyond anything any of us will ever see in our lifetime, thankfully.

[paulrockliffe]

V8 Fettler said:

We are agreed that there were issues with the design of the stadium. I see very little in the headlines today about the failure of the owners of the stadium, the FA and "authorities" to change the design within a reasonable time frame. The management of the crowd varied from previous years primarily because of the lack of a good operational plan.

I think that probably arises out of the conduct of the Police, but obviously the media can run whatever headlines they prefer. I've copied the questions asked of the jury and the answers below that identify failings of others other than the police, I don't think it's just the Police that are on the hook still.

Inquest said:

Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster? Verdict: YES

Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster? Verdict: YES

Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match? Verdict: YES

Should Eastwood and Partners (structural engineers) have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough Stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster? Verdict: YES

After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service (SYMAS) which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster? Verdict: YES

[EnthusiastOwned]

SeeFive said:

Aw c'mon, we know they did. They laid down, pulled the heaviest people on top of them and shouted to the back of the crowd for everyone to keep pushing as they were all missing the game.

You and nobody has said it was the fault of the victims. I can't understand why people keep trotting it out. It would appear to be normal behaviour to push from the back of a crowd at any event, without considering the consequences, so that is fine, nobody's fault except for the people trying to fix the issues caused by that completely normal behaviour.

I think this is what i'm struggling to understand. Just becuase it's normal behaviour does not make it right nor an adaquate alibi.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

FredClogs said:

As has been repeatedly said in this thread, the actions of the crowd locked out the ground with 10 minutes to kick off were entirely predictable, there is no mitigation for the police in describing, as you have, what they already knew and were prepared for.

I agree with this. My point has always been that the crowd would not have been well behaved as many are stating. They would have been badly behaved, which was the norm. Of course the police should have dealt with it, and they failed to do so miserably and then lied to cover it up.

FredClogs said:

If you were in a "firm" in the 70s and 80s (as you seem to hint at earlier in the thread)

Nope, I was never in a firm. There were 3 types of football fan in the 70s and 80s. The well behaved respectful fan (about 5%), the hooligan (maybe 10%) and the remaining 85% of which I was one, not a hooligan, never looking to get into fights, but loud mouthed and aggressive with little respect for authority and often drinking too much.

[anonymous-user]

paulrockliffe said:

desolate said:

paulrockliffe said:

Thirty of those that died were outside the ground a few minutes before the match kicked off.

So beyond turning up for a football match - how did they, as victims, contribute to their own death?

Why are you asking me that? It's pretty clear from the inquest verdict that they didn't contribute to their own deaths and nothing I've written above suggests otherwise.

Sorry - it's quite a fast moving thread so I may have missed your point/confused it with another poster.

[V8 Fettler]

RottenIcons said:

V8 Fettler said:

RottenIcons said:

Civil Engineer (involved in the design stage of a modern Football Stadium) hat on for a moment.

The reality of the flow dynamics of crowds was until a breakthrough research paper of 1993 very much non-existent and guesswork ruled the day, the paper of 1993 changed everything overnight, I was fortunate in getting the paper in time to affect the design of the crowd control measures on our Halo Project.

I can tell you that almost all the measures are actually very counter-intuitive and seems to be 'totally wrong', but they work, they really work. It is just foolish to compare old Stadia to anything built since that date, there is no basis point for comparison. Hillsborough could have been made immensely safer had the research been done years earlier, I have seen the film/video of the Leppings Lane entrances and approaches and for a few thousand pounds (yes, that little!) a good Civil Engineer with a working knowledge of the principles outlined in 1993 could make it a dozen times safer than it was at anytime in it's existence.

I'll remove my Civil engineers hat now, it still fits though!

The Romans could design for crowd control, see how quickly the Colosseum could be vacated.

Yes, and for many years we copied their designs or rather their lack of design, Hillsborough is just the same as any classical venue.

The difference was two-fold, first the Roman venues were not ticketed and payment was voluntary or not needed at all for most of the time. It was free. So they had no bottle-necks, look at the Leppings Lane entrances and try to find anything that even vaguely resembles such structures or facilities on the Ancient stadia. None are to be found. Second the stadia were policed by soldiers and a sort of martial law existed, entrances were nominated, named, by the alphabet, so no-one just ran and stood where they wished Joe Bloggs entered in sector 'B' and if your best friend was Billy Smith then there were concentric circlulatories within to allow people to meet up. They were immensely complex structures. The enormous sails that shaded the spectators from the fierce sun did occasionally snap their main-masts and evacuations were very common as a result of the collapse and it seems serious injury free.

Had the Romans installed turnstiles with payments, had an unruly assembly regime, no legionnaires and goals at each end of the stadium with their naturally highly coveted seats then they'd have lost hundreds of lives too.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we Engineers are a rum lot and just call things out in plain voice, we are irritating bast's.

Edited by RottenIcons on Wednesday 27th April 14:12

The Romans designed and managed the operation of the Colosseum with the intention of controlling crowds. Hillsborough wasn't designed or managed with the intention of controlling crowds, hence the issues arising. The design and operational management of Hillsborough was shambolic.

[Turquoise]

You all need to read this. It was an accident waiting to happen. But the police and in particular the stadium owners didn't do a damn thing. I'd not seen this before but it's made me so angry.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main...

An absolute fking disgrace.

[davidball]

So the IPCC is investigating the roles of the West Midlands Police in the Hillsborough scandal. From the evidence know known there can be no doubt that they were involved in attempts to intimidate witnesses and many other actions to deflect blame away from the SYP.

Did they or the SYP tap the phones of the families who would not shut up? Who ordered the criminal record checks on the victims and their families? These dirty tricks should be no surprise. It is part of the culture of close ranks and cover-up.

There can be no doubt now of the danger of allowing the police to investigate themselves. This danger exists at the top level down to allowing police officers to collude over statements, something they frantically try to prevent members of the public doing.

We will never know if Dr. Stefan Popper was party to the cover-up. He certainly did not wish to discuss his decisions after he retired. It is quite possible he was manipulated by the SYP in that evidence was withheld from him. His decision to prohibit any evidence of what occurred after 3.15pm is controversial and very convenient for the SYP and ambulance services.

I feel very sorry for rank and file police officers who want to do their job without fear or favour. Those who have been betrayed by their senior officers must be feeling very aggrieved. The police need the consent and support of the public but their image and integrity has suffered a serious blow.

[anonymous-user]

Looks like the current Chief Constable of SYP has been suspended.

[SeeFive]

EnthusiastOwned said:

I think this is what i'm struggling to understand. Just becuase it's normal behaviour does not make it right nor an adaquate alibi.

Hence my problem with the jury's answer to question 7.

If the fans outside hadn't pressed and pushed impatiently against the people at the turnstiles and those already inside in their "panic" to see their game, there would have been no need for any crowd management. There would have been no bad or good decisions by plod, and nobody would have died, and no disgusting lies or cover ups later on.

So therefore, one could say that there must have been a contributory factor from the crowd. And arguably, this contribution was right at the outset of events - the trigger point for the following events. Everything else was in response to the problem caused by that push.

[Bigends]

SeeFive said:

EnthusiastOwned said:

I think this is what i'm struggling to understand. Just becuase it's normal behaviour does not make it right nor an adaquate alibi.

Hence my problem with the jury's answer to question 7.

If the fans outside hadn't pressed and pushed impatiently against the people at the turnstiles and those already inside in their "panic" to see their game, there would have been no need for any crowd management. There would have been no bad or good decisions by plod, and nobody would have died, and no disgusting lies or cover ups later on.

So therefore, one could say that there must have been a contributory factor from the crowd. And arguably, this contribution was right at the outset of events - the trigger point for the following events. Everything else was in response to the problem caused by that push.

Allowing them into the ground in an uncontrolled manner then allowing them into an already packed area was the contributory factor. Its not as if they fought and rioted their way into the ground was it. A crowd had formed which escalated into a crush, hence the gates were opened. All the fans did was squeeze their way into the central area not realising the consequences of what they were doing - there was no malice or intent to cause death or harm on their part. Police had a duty of care to get everybody into and out of the ground in a safe, controlled manner - they failed on this occasion. I policed league matches all over the uk for 27 odd years both on terraces and within control rooms - saw some piss poor Policing and decision making in relation to crowd control over the years.

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 27th April 17:02

[Jockman]

SeeFive said:

Hence my problem with the jury's answer to question 7.

If the fans outside hadn't pressed and pushed impatiently against the people at the turnstiles and those already inside in their "panic" to see their game, there would have been no need for any crowd management. There would have been no bad or good decisions by plod, and nobody would have died, and no disgusting lies or cover ups later on.

So therefore, one could say that there must have been a contributory factor from the crowd. And arguably, this contribution was right at the outset of events - the trigger point for the following events. Everything else was in response to the problem caused by that push.

Essentially, you are saying the crowd to the rear contributed to the deaths of the crowd at the front?

[gooner1]

SeeFive said:

Hence my problem with the jury's answer to question 7.

If the fans outside hadn't pressed and pushed impatiently against the people at the turnstiles and those already inside in their "panic" to see their game, there would have been no need for any crowd management. There would have been no bad or good decisions by plod, and nobody would have died, and no disgusting lies or cover ups later on.

So therefore, one could say that there must have been a contributory factor from the crowd. And arguably, this contribution was right at the outset of events - the trigger point for the following events. Everything else was in response to the problem caused by that push.

If you are running a Bath, and allow the Bath to overflow, is it the fault of the water, or you, the Bath runner?

[walm]

SeeFive said:

If the fans outside hadn't pressed and pushed impatiently against the people at the turnstiles and those already inside in their "panic" to see their game, there would have been no need for any crowd management.

Essentially you are still making the "if they weren't there it wouldn't have happened" argument.

Part of the job of the ground and the police is to ensure the safety of the people under their care.
If those people behave perfectly legally and in a completely predictable fashion, and end up dying, then the ground and/or the police are responsible 100%.

You can't be blamed if you have done nothing illegal in my eyes.

Absolutely there was need for crowd management AND a moral responsibility - that's the whole point.

[EnthusiastOwned]

gooner1 said:

If you are running a Bath, and allow the Bath to overflow, is it the fault of the water, or you, the Bath runner?

The water isn't capable of rational thought.

[gooner1]

desolate said:

Looks like the current Chief Constable of SYP has been suspended.

I may be misreading the news report but has he been suspended for apologising?

[Halb]

gooner1 said:

If you are running a Bath, and allow the Bath to overflow, is it the fault of the water, or you, the Bath runner?

Exactly.