Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
iSore said:
It's 'suit'.
Jesus, from under which rock did you crawl?
you are a piece of filth thinking you can casually remark about the deaths of 96 innocent people. they didn't die for your amusement or pleasure. you are exactly the sort of person who perpetuates the stereotypical view that has endured for 27 years. I hope you too will suffer the pain and anguish the families have enduredJesus, from under which rock did you crawl?
XCP said:
The bloody horses used to scare the carp out of me. And I agree with your observations about the dogs.
We used to train with the horses for public order training - back in the days when the police could afford something that resembled a mounted branch.Split shields and the horses would charge from the rear of the serial, through the middle of the lines, through the gaps in the shields.
For some reason I was always closest to Mr Ed as he came galloping through.
If you weren't wide awake before, you certainly were for that part of training !
desolate said:
In other news... Looks like the temporary SYP Chief Constable has offered to stand down as they have just found out that she was under investigation for corruption whilst at her previous role within GMP.
She looks like a special one.
yes I read that earlier - it seems if you get high enough up the ladder you wont get there without some sort of investigation on your CVShe looks like a special one.
Nothing proven and the chief was happy to have her as a deputy
What did the local PCC say?
saaby93 said:
yes I read that earlier - it seems if you get high enough up the ladder you wont get there without some sort of investigation on your CV
Nothing proven and the chief was happy to have her as a deputy
What did the local PCC say?
Look it up yourself, saaby.Nothing proven and the chief was happy to have her as a deputy
What did the local PCC say?
It's a fascinating tale.
desolate said:
In other news... Looks like the temporary SYP Chief Constable has offered to stand down as they have just found out that she was under investigation for corruption whilst at her previous role within GMP.
She looks like a special one.
That job will be a poison chalice for a while to come.She looks like a special one.
desolate said:
Having just watched Line of Duty, if I was a copper I would defnitely be keeping my head down and taking the earliest possible retirement.
There are some stormy seas ahead.
Line of Duty, whilst entertaining, is a bit (alot) far fetched.There are some stormy seas ahead.
That said, given the events of the last few days perhaps I should reconsider my opinion on the tv drama !
s3fella said:
Because he is one of the pricks who reckons it was still partially the fans fault. Him and his bum chum C5.
And I still do. Twig has added some of his insight to what I experienced at games at the time, and the interview of the fan who WAS THERE, confessed to being one of those that arrived late and pushed in confirmed it on R4. As far as I can see, it is open for debate if unsavoury given the tragedy and the other issues that clearly occurred as cause.Once again, thank you for your valuable insults, a real credit to this thread and the debate.
s3fella said:
the pair of you. Deluded too.
You are simply coming on as the insulting internet hardman here and really dragging this thread down with your own brand of odious behaviour. Not just your last two posts, but earlier on too leveraging the PHer's excellent post who was commenting on his experience of being in the crush on the day to have a go at another poster.
It is not about points scoring against other posters you know. It is a discussion which some of us are trying to hold with respect for the victims / families of course, and those on here with a different point of view and experiences.
Edited by Bill on Friday 29th April 07:15
Red 4 said:
1. I've already covered that - it's ambiguous (see my previous post) but I think it's pretty clear that Andy Burnham is not blaming "the rank and file" who were there on the day.
There were low ranked officers on the day whom were criticised. It's also ambiguous as he jumps across timeframes as to he means. Does he mean the people who were there or just the front line generally? He makes reference to those who are still serving and on the streets so that makes it rather unclear since there aren't really going to be any front line officers still serving whom were there. In any event, why should there be ambiguity? It's a rehearsed speech and his meaning should be precise and clear.
He also uses Rotherham to bash the senior officers, although none of them were in South Yorks at the time.
Red 4 said:
2. Are you serious ?
Are you really suggesting that senior officers did their best on the day ?
By their own admissions this was a monumental cock-up by SYP that resulted in 96 deaths - unlawful killing. Remember ?
Please revisit the last few days and when you've done that and had a reality check, come back and try to defend the indefensible.
Where did I say all? It depends how you define senior. There were many ranks and many roles. Some did badly, some did well. It's not a black and white 'senior bad', 'non-senior good' situation. Well, is is for a simplistic Parliamentary speech. Are you really suggesting that senior officers did their best on the day ?
By their own admissions this was a monumental cock-up by SYP that resulted in 96 deaths - unlawful killing. Remember ?
Please revisit the last few days and when you've done that and had a reality check, come back and try to defend the indefensible.
Red 4 said:
By the way - did you know a South Yorks ACC was also in attendance at Hillsborough. Albeit he was off duty, he made his way to police control as the tragedy unfolded.
He did naff all. He has been heavily criticised in previous inquiries and was described as a somewhat "shadowy figure" on the day.
In other words he out-ranked Duckenfield and should have taken control but he chose to duck out and avoid responsibility.
Should he have taken control? A higher rank doesn't mean greater suitability at specific command structures i.e. football. Plenty of ACPO officers have not gone down the route of football commanding. Who knows? Even if he should have it doesn't void what I've said. He did naff all. He has been heavily criticised in previous inquiries and was described as a somewhat "shadowy figure" on the day.
In other words he out-ranked Duckenfield and should have taken control but he chose to duck out and avoid responsibility.
Red 4 said:
3. Don't kid yourself.
If HMG tell the police to jump then all they will do is ask "How high?".
Unlikely if he wants the performance and successful implementation of reform to make him successful. If HMG tell the police to jump then all they will do is ask "How high?".
Thankfully, it's not likely he'll ever be the Home Secretary given where Labour are at the moment and the last election.
Steve Campbell said:
The Surveyor said:
The point is that people do push at public events, and they certainly did at Football matches back then, so the Police should have been ready for this, they weren't so people died.
You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
The "role" of the "crowd" is an interesting one. The commentary on "pushing" from the back brings up images of unruly people deliberately "shoving". I can't talk for those at the back, I wasn't one of them...as to what they did.....but anyone who is interested should google around crowd dynamics, especially the phenomena of turbulence. Once a crowd reaches a certain density, small and relatively insignificant movements propagate high pressure waves through the crowd, resulting In significant movements of the crowd that are not the consequences of significant "shoving". If you watch the videos of the pens, you can see this. The problem with this phenomena in this circumstance was that the pressure wave had no where to go, and being on a sloped terrace, drove the crowd forward. As the crowd surged due to the dynamics, further people filled the space (whether they wanted to or not). I know this happened 3 or 4 times where I was located. I believe one of the commentaries talks of the pressure being like a constricting snake. This is the best description I have heard for those at the "ends" of those pressure waves where there was nowhere to go and the pressure just increased as the turbulence wave occurred.You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
Edited by The Surveyor on Thursday 28th April 18:12
PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
As for the crush outside, and taking it at the time, it was unbelievable. To give you an idea, at the time, I was a 22 year old, fit and healthy 6"1' man. I got trapped "between" the turnstiles against a wall. There was nothing I could do on my own. About 4 other blokes managed to ease the crush by bracing themselves against the wall which eased the pressure. I described entering the turnstile like a cork out of a bottle. The news at the time described fans "climbing" to get into the ground, in fact, they climbed to get out of the crush. There was at least 1 policeman on the roof helping them. The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd. Police horses got trapped within the crowd, some reports talked of the horses being lifted. I saw quite a few people ducking "between" the legs of the horses to prevent getting crushed against them !
As for opening the gate, at that given moment I personally think it was likely the only decision to prevent injury or death outside. At that point I was standing in front of the tunnel looking for my friends. When the door opened, I thought....oh, they've opened the gate to release the pressure outside, I better get into the ground ....that's when I turned to enter the tunnel.
The aftermath, the lies and cover-up warrant action; but the tragic event itself appears an unfortunate accident.
--- edit ---
The incident reminds me a lot of the whole chain of errors we see revealed in air accident investigations, each error is small and easily correctable alone, but they build up to create an accelerating unmanageable situation. Perhaps public enquires could learn from those, with prevention of re-occurrences not apportioning blame is the objective.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_events_(aer...
Edited by 4x4Tyke on Friday 29th April 07:43
4x4Tyke said:
not apportioning blame is the objective.
Almost but not quite. A Just Culture is one where reporting is encouraged and the objective is to learn from incident and near-miss to avoid a repeat. Only in the case of wilful misconduct is sanction enacted i.e. if someone knew (or their training and qualification should have put them in a position to distinguish) what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway, then they can be the subject of "action", whatever that may be (discipline, termination or prosecution). That's the principle anyway, but in some cultures (ie countries or regions) that doesn't sit well so they choose their own interpretation. On the whole though, this is one of the primary reasons aviation has become so safe.
Edited by Speed 3 on Friday 29th April 09:02
Edited by Speed 3 on Friday 29th April 09:06
Speed 3 said:
I'm in that industry and you're right, there could be a lot learned. The Swiss Cheese theory is exactly that in answer to all those saying 'why didn't this and that happen in the prior events then....'....it did, just the holes didn't quite line up on those days. Its a compound effect.
Human factors needs to be taught in more industries. I was sceptical about it at first but it really focuses the mind.desolate said:
Having just watched Line of Duty, if I was a copper I would defnitely be keeping my head down and taking the earliest possible retirement.
There are some stormy seas ahead.
Now SYP have been proven to be unreliable witnesses, how long will it before all those miners go back to court appealing Police evidence?There are some stormy seas ahead.
johnxjsc1985 said:
you are a piece of filth thinking you can casually remark about the deaths of 96 innocent people. they didn't die for your amusement or pleasure. you are exactly the sort of person who perpetuates the stereotypical view that has endured for 27 years. I hope you too will suffer the pain and anguish the families have endured
Blimey - talk about emotional! SeeFive said:
And I still do. Twig has added some of his insight to what I experienced at games at the time, and the interview of the fan who WAS THERE, confessed to being one of those that arrived late and pushed in confirmed it on R4. As far as I can see, it is open for debate if unsavoury given the tragedy and the other issues that clearly occurred as cause.
Once again, thank you for your valuable insults, a real credit to this thread and the debate.
We should compare insults. I've been called a piece of filth but I don't think I've been called a spaz yet. I guess there's still time!Once again, thank you for your valuable insults, a real credit to this thread and the debate.
Desolate - if I may be so bold.......what is your own personal interest? Were you there, lose a loved one or just a general grievance?
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