Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
ninja-lewis said:
XCP said:
With regard to the altered police statements. All alterations deletions or additions to a Sect9 statement MUST be initialled or signed by the person making the statement who signs the relevant caption. If this is not done the statement is not worth the paper it is written on. I find it hard to understand how statements that had been altered without the knowledge of the witness could therefore be accepted by the court.
They didn't start as Criminal Justice Act statements.In the immediate aftermath, the statements started out as "our job is merely to collate what evidence South Yorkshire Police officer can provide to their Chief Constable in order that we can present a suitable case, on behalf of the force, to the subsequent inquiries." The accounts were to be "self-written on plain paper and will NOT be taken under CJA rules."
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/...
"DCC Hayes informed Mr Woodward that the ‘main players in this are doing their own accounts’. He asked, ‘is that O.K. or would you rather someone take their statement’. Mr Woodward replied, ‘It couldn’t be better. They can put all the things in that they want and we will sort them out’.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/...
Shortly afterwards, WMP invited senior SYP officers to submit evidence to be passed to the Taylor Inquiry. SYP Legal Counsel raised concerns that it might not be fair if self-taken statements were used at the inquests or disciplinary proceedings rather than being restricted to the Taylor inquiry. Chief Constable Wright determined that there was "no practical difficulty because there was not going to be anything in the self-taken statements which would not have been in CJA statements if taken".
Nonetheless, it was agreed that SYP legal counsel should vet the statements before they were released to WMP. This process continued into June 1989. Some officers did raise concerns, which prompted an ACC to issue an update stating that" The initial Reports submitted contained a mixture of fact, conjecture and opinion. In editing them for use as a factual statement by the Inquiry it has been necessary for the solicitors to remove conjecture and opinion and to leave only matters of fact."
He went on to state that "no amended statement will be submitted to the West Midlands Police until it has been seen, approved and signed by the officer making it."
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/...
Reading between the lines it appears that officers were presented with a typed statement for them to sign, some weeks/months after writing their original recollection. Only at this point were they considered formal statements.
The various inquiries (WMP, Taylor, the original inquests) involved were aware of this process.
Of 164 statements identified for substantive amendment, 116 involved removing comments critical of SYP. A subsequent WMP investigation found that in 5 out of a sample of 6 statements material should not have been removed. "In one case he questioned ... the objectivity of the person vetting". Stuart-Smith noted that "there was a tendency to remove
opinion and intemperate language about senior police officers but leave in similar material about misbehaviour by Liverpool fans".
SYP were not alone in doing this. South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service carried out a similar process.
ninja-lewis said:
Informed stuff.
In the post-op debrief on 15 April 1989, police officers were also ordered not to make notes in their pocketbooks of the events of that day.Instead, senior officers wanted officer's "recollections of the day" recording on blank sheets of paper - not MG11s (statement forms, which would have been the norm).
The arse- covering started quickly, it seems.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 29th April 21:28
Local TV news Calendar that covers the Sheffield area had an interview with a retired policeman.
He claimed that there were drunk fans and that the inquest got it wrong.
I don't know for sure but I doubt he was at the inquest for 2 years and heard all the evidence.
Neither my wife or I are football fan or have any connection with Liverpool or anyone connected/effected with/by Hillsborough but we both thought WTF.
There was and still is something fundamentally wrong with SYP and someone needs to sort it out PDQ.
ETA:
Here is the report:
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-04-29/retire...
He claimed that there were drunk fans and that the inquest got it wrong.
I don't know for sure but I doubt he was at the inquest for 2 years and heard all the evidence.
Neither my wife or I are football fan or have any connection with Liverpool or anyone connected/effected with/by Hillsborough but we both thought WTF.
There was and still is something fundamentally wrong with SYP and someone needs to sort it out PDQ.
ETA:
Here is the report:
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-04-29/retire...
Edited by skeggysteve on Friday 29th April 21:37
skeggysteve said:
Local TV news Calendar that covers the Sheffield area had an interview with a retired policeman.
He claimed that there were drunk fans and that the inquest got it wrong.
I don't know for sure but I doubt he was at the inquest for 2 years and heard all the evidence.
Neither my wife or I are football fan or have any connection with Liverpool or anyone connected/effected with/by Hillsborough but we both thought WTF.
There was and still is something fundamentally wrong with SYP and someone needs to sort it out PDQ.
ETA:
Here is the report:
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-04-29/retire...
Perhaps former Chief Inspector Sumner needs to re-read his own statement;He claimed that there were drunk fans and that the inquest got it wrong.
I don't know for sure but I doubt he was at the inquest for 2 years and heard all the evidence.
Neither my wife or I are football fan or have any connection with Liverpool or anyone connected/effected with/by Hillsborough but we both thought WTF.
There was and still is something fundamentally wrong with SYP and someone needs to sort it out PDQ.
ETA:
Here is the report:
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-04-29/retire...
Edited by skeggysteve on Friday 29th April 21:37
He said "The Liverpool fans were boisterous, as one would expect, but there was no cause for concern so far as could be seen at that time". (the time was about 14.00 hours).
He does go on to say that some Liverpool fans were drunk "stupidly drunk" as he put it, but says that he "would like to emphasize that they were not fighting drunk or in an ugly mood".
He also said that the police officers at Leppings Lane were "coping adequately" (this would have been at about 14.30 hours).
Sumner was at the Notts Forrest End (and nowhere near Gate C when it was opened) so his opinion about the events at Leppings Lane are irrelevant - he wasn't there.
I think someone should tell South Yorkshire Police/ retired South Yorkshire Police to stop digging.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 29th April 23:22
k.desolate said:
Have watched it a few times and get the feeling the old buffer may have been stitched up by ITV.
I'm not so sure.He seemed more than happy to provide his opinion.
Poor judgement on his part given the determination/ weight of public opinion/ current goings-on at South Yorkshire Police.
A bit like Crompton saying South Yorks needed to be "a bit more innovative" in their response to the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, otherwise "they would just be roadkill".
Maybe they're related !
Edited by Red 4 on Saturday 30th April 00:23
Hindsight Bias said:
also known as the knew-it-all-along effect or creeping determinism, is the inclination, after an event has occurred, to see the event as having been predictable, despite there having been little or no objective basis for predicting it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_biasRed 4 said:
La Liga - like I said, I don't want this to descend into a points scoring contest.
We've both been knocking around these parts for a while and I agree with much of what you say on other forums, in particular the SP&L forum.
I did the job you do for more years than I care to remember and I know, from experience, how difficult the job can be.
However, on the subject of Hillsborough I doubt we'll ever agree.
I don't feel the need to defend "the job" on this matter.
The facts speak for themselves.
Like I said - if you want to educate yourself there is plenty of material available.
Much of it was complied by people who actually know what they are talking about.
I have no axe to grind - I'm just being objective.
Perhaps you should take a step back and do the same ...
I have no dispute with any of the conclusions or evidence from the inquest. It's the politics, with-hunting and opportunism beyond the inquest I object to. Whether that be people talking about cultures when they're in no position to, or suspending Chief Constables for no rational reason. We've both been knocking around these parts for a while and I agree with much of what you say on other forums, in particular the SP&L forum.
I did the job you do for more years than I care to remember and I know, from experience, how difficult the job can be.
However, on the subject of Hillsborough I doubt we'll ever agree.
I don't feel the need to defend "the job" on this matter.
The facts speak for themselves.
Like I said - if you want to educate yourself there is plenty of material available.
Much of it was complied by people who actually know what they are talking about.
I have no axe to grind - I'm just being objective.
Perhaps you should take a step back and do the same ...
c'mon chaps we're not in a police state ( or the opposite) where we're trying to shut down opinion.
The inquest Jury has given its verdict on the questions it was asked
If all of this had been predictable we wouldnt have needed the inquiry.
The question you have to ask though is, without the whole sorry process, would we still be herding fans in pens and putting police on the wrong end of it too?
The whole regular weekend tribal fiasco has gone.
Would we be where we are without Hillsborough
Red 4 said:
I'm not so sure.
He seemed more than happy to provide his opinion.
Poor judgement on his part given the determination/ weight of public opinion/ current goings-on at South Yorkshire Police.
A bit like Crompton saying South Yorks needed to be "a bit more innovative" in their response to the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, otherwise "they would just be roadkill".
Maybe they're related !
you can also understand why SYP wanted to make sure it's voice was heard tooHe seemed more than happy to provide his opinion.
Poor judgement on his part given the determination/ weight of public opinion/ current goings-on at South Yorkshire Police.
A bit like Crompton saying South Yorks needed to be "a bit more innovative" in their response to the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, otherwise "they would just be roadkill".
Maybe they're related !
The inquest Jury has given its verdict on the questions it was asked
If all of this had been predictable we wouldnt have needed the inquiry.
4x4Tyke said:
Hindsight Bias said:
also known as the knew-it-all-along effect or creeping determinism, is the inclination, after an event has occurred, to see the event as having been predictable, despite there having been little or no objective basis for predicting it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_biasThe question you have to ask though is, without the whole sorry process, would we still be herding fans in pens and putting police on the wrong end of it too?
The whole regular weekend tribal fiasco has gone.
Would we be where we are without Hillsborough
The campaign by the Justice for the 96 group has to go down as one of the successful ever on these shores. They have done what I would have never thought possible in this country, which is to completely bend and bully the entire media to their will. No other opinion is allowed to exist in the public domain except 'the truth' and any one who has dared to question any of the findings over the years is professionally and publicly assassinated.
None of that sits well with me.
None of that sits well with me.
272BHP said:
The campaign by the Justice for the 96 group has to go down as one of the successful ever on these shores. They have done what I would have never thought possible in this country, which is to completely bend and bully the entire media to their will. No other opinion is allowed to exist in the public domain except 'the truth' and any one who has dared to question any of the findings over the years is professionally and publicly assassinated.
None of that sits well with me.
Very valid. None of that sits well with me.
Normally after this time a human being will move on with their life and attempt to rebuild, recognising the value of positive action in the resolution of the grief process. Instead the Liverpool Justice group have suspended their lives in order to pursue the case. When they begin the process of rebuilding, whenever that my be, the process of moving forward will be almost as hard as if the tragedy occurred much more recently. The group dynamic of these people would make a fascinating, if sad, study. I wonder whether all the group were as determined as each other to proceed? Were there leaders? Were there members of the group who were chastised for lacking the desire to conform? How were they brought in line? Lastly who organised what roles the group members would adopt? There will be group leaders and loafers....but after how many years can the desire for justice be called an obsession? Lastly society has changed since the tragedy occurred - is it the case that only now could the hearings have been held with a 100% result in favour of the group? Interestingly similar questions have been raised about historical sex abuse cases - cases that only now in a very different society would lead to a prosecution.
There is e fine line between justice and obsession. The need for the thruth to be told about a life lost is a profound driver in many people. I would argue even more so, when the likes of the police, the red topped media and many individuals would have (and did) blame them for their own demise.
I would also argue that there is no more powerful driver than the need for justice - more so when that is your child.
To me, the case hghlights the lethal cocktail of misinformation so emotive that it has to be 'the truth' - why would anyone make up such things as that newspaper said, coupled with the dogged determination of those in positions of power and influence to act in a way roadblocking every attempt to make the truth known.
We have within our police force a deeply self-serving core that seeks little than to self protect. What is worrying is that this core can so easily delay, alter, abuse and corrupt investigations and those who would stand against their self serving agenda.
As a country we need to sort this out. Now. We cannot wait for another major event and twenty years of cover-up before that truth emerges.
I would also argue that there is no more powerful driver than the need for justice - more so when that is your child.
To me, the case hghlights the lethal cocktail of misinformation so emotive that it has to be 'the truth' - why would anyone make up such things as that newspaper said, coupled with the dogged determination of those in positions of power and influence to act in a way roadblocking every attempt to make the truth known.
We have within our police force a deeply self-serving core that seeks little than to self protect. What is worrying is that this core can so easily delay, alter, abuse and corrupt investigations and those who would stand against their self serving agenda.
As a country we need to sort this out. Now. We cannot wait for another major event and twenty years of cover-up before that truth emerges.
Was it predictable?
Hasn't it been reported that Duckenfield was put in charge of that match without any real hand over from the officer that had previously done the task at that stadium? Was there some kind of spat or internecine bickering within SYP over him being given that task?
Wasn't it a case of sink or swim, get on with it?
Airline pilots train in simulators. Oil Tanker skippers used to train in scale model, two seater convertible pretend oil tankers?
It's like the majority of car accidents? An unfortunate combination of contributory factors, some of which could have been prevented and were entirely foreseeable.
SYP were playing games. Playing games like cuts have consequences.
Hasn't it been reported that Duckenfield was put in charge of that match without any real hand over from the officer that had previously done the task at that stadium? Was there some kind of spat or internecine bickering within SYP over him being given that task?
Wasn't it a case of sink or swim, get on with it?
Airline pilots train in simulators. Oil Tanker skippers used to train in scale model, two seater convertible pretend oil tankers?
It's like the majority of car accidents? An unfortunate combination of contributory factors, some of which could have been prevented and were entirely foreseeable.
SYP were playing games. Playing games like cuts have consequences.
Edited by carinaman on Saturday 30th April 11:49
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff