Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
desolate said:
On the first point: history has been re-written, in public over two years. The behaviour of the fans has not been air brushed. It has been fully exposed - it's on video and there are hundreds and hundreds of statements available for anyone to read. It is all there. Nothing left out.
The coroner has a massively expensive and well qualified legal team supporting him. He himself is an eminent lawyer. He has the power to preclude the jury from reaching what he thinks is an "unsafe" verdict. (I have a connection with a completely seperate controversial inquest and the coroner REFUSED To allow a verdict that included unlawful killing.
So in summary - everyone has said their piece and it is all out there if anyone wants to look beyond the headlines. Warts and all.
On the second point I would agree, context is important. I would add that the police and the authorities should take their share of the blame for the historical context.
A bizarre aspect of the UK judicial system. Not really trial by jury if the judge/coroner can refuse a jury's verdict.The coroner has a massively expensive and well qualified legal team supporting him. He himself is an eminent lawyer. He has the power to preclude the jury from reaching what he thinks is an "unsafe" verdict. (I have a connection with a completely seperate controversial inquest and the coroner REFUSED To allow a verdict that included unlawful killing.
So in summary - everyone has said their piece and it is all out there if anyone wants to look beyond the headlines. Warts and all.
On the second point I would agree, context is important. I would add that the police and the authorities should take their share of the blame for the historical context.
desolate said:
On the first point: history has been re-written, in public over two years. The behaviour of the fans has not been air brushed. It has been fully exposed - it's on video and there are hundreds and hundreds of statements available for anyone to read. It is all there. Nothing left out.
Same for the police and that video brownbottle posted up. The Club itself and the stadium consultants have also come under scrutiny yet for some reason whoever was in charge has been highlighted the same way as prominent people in the Police.The one part of the sorry tale thing the Jury doesn't seem to have reported on is the involvement of the media, why no questioning there too?
Brownbottle's posted video shows the way the incident was immediately being portrayed and afterwards (including the police statement why they opened the gates)
Although the easiest thing is to settle on a person, in reality wasnt it a whole set of events that came together not only for the tragedy itself but subsequent portrayal?
V8 Fettler said:
Contemporaneous notes are a very influential record of events and can be referred to in the witness box. Did not officers protest at this order? Perhaps via the Federation?
A ridiculous order and probably not lawful. Each officer, and he/she alone, is responsible for what they write in their pocketbook. I'd have written mine as I saw fit, thank you. I remember being involved in a controversial riot situation in the 1980's where I wrote an entry running to some 40 odd pages. No-one told me what to write. At the end of the day I was the one who would have to justify my notes if they were questioned.La Liga said:
Having been one and known loads of staff officers to various SCTs, I reach the opposite conclusion.
In that case, considering this thread is about Hillsborough, would you like to try and defend and justify the actions of the senior officers of South Yorkshire Police - both on the 15 April 1989, in the immediate aftermath, in the "cover-up campaign"/ slurring of Liverpool fans and in the 27 years following the disaster ?I'm failing to see how the public interest has been at the forefront of their actions and has been put before their own self-preservation and the reputation of the force.
Good luck.
XCP said:
A ridiculous order and probably not lawful. Each officer, and he/she alone, is responsible for what they write in their pocketbook.
Unless you're careless enough to leave your pocketbook lying around and find that someone has, thoughtfully, drawn a lovely phaliic symbol, for your perusal and enjoyment, inside.Red 4 said:
XCP said:
A ridiculous order and probably not lawful. Each officer, and he/she alone, is responsible for what they write in their pocketbook.
Unless you're careless enough to leave your pocketbook lying around and find that someone has, thoughtfully, drawn a lovely phaliic symbol, for your perusal and enjoyment, inside.A powerful and distressing account by someone there on the day
Justice, finally: a Hillsborough survivor’s story
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hi...
On 15 April 1989, I walked down a tunnel into Hillsborough, and into the sunshine, thinking: “Where would you rather be on a day like this?” An hour later, at just after 3pm, I am caught somewhere between this life and the next.
The game has kicked off. I can see people in the north stand following it with their eyes. Others are fixated on the space around me, and pointing furiously, or running down the gangways to the pitch, shouting at police officers. But they are far away. Closer, a few feet away, people are dead on their feet. The air is thick with the smell of excrement and urine. Three men are changing colour, from a pale violet to a ghostly pallor. Some have vomit streaming from their nostrils. People are weeping. Others are gibbering, trying to black out what is happening. I am 19, and I know that I am about to die.
As my brain begins to flood my body with endorphins, I am lifted above the crowd, in a bubble of warm water. It is strangely peaceful. Then shouting: rasping, aggressive shouting. In a Yorkshire accent: “Get back you stupid b
ds!”
....
In July 1989, two plainclothes detectives arrived at my home in Stevenage. It was a Sunday, around 2pm, and the golf was on the TV. They sat me down, told me they would write down my statement by hand, and that I should then read it, and, if I was happy, sign it. So I began to tell them what had happened, and they began to laugh at me. They were soon snorting too, and yawning, and turning away to watch the golf. And nodding, sarcastically, when I told them about the failings of the police, and how they had abused our supporters as we tried to save the dead.
Now they handed over my statement. “Read it and sign it, would you?”
But I wasn’t happy. They had rewritten it; changed the meaning of certain incidents. Omitted key details. “Like what?” the officer said. Well, this happened, and this happened, I told them. He shook his head: “That didn’t happen.”
Repeatedly, they informed me that I was mistaken; that I hadn’t seen anything significant; that where I was in the stadium wasn’t that bad, and that I would not go forward as a witness at the inquests. My account was probably best simply filed away. So if I just sign this statement, we’ll be off, and you can get on with your life.
As I grew increasingly angry, the detective with the remote control in his hands pumped up the volume on the TV. I was shouting to be heard in my own living room, and they were trying to drown me out. Eventually, I signed that statement and they were gone. I could not have realised at the time, in the summer of 1989, that I was caught up in one of the biggest attempts to pervert the course of justice in British history. This was happening in real time. So I simply shut the front door, told them to “fk off” under my breath, went up to my bedroom, and broke down.
...
There is much, now, for the public to ponder. This is the biggest cover-up in British history – or at least the largest ever exposed. And really, what was it all for? Was this crime committed, and British justice so contaminated, simply to save the reputations of a handful of incompetent or corrupt police officers? Certainly, it appears they were worth more to those in power than 96 dead football fans and their families; worth more than justice itself.
...
Justice, finally: a Hillsborough survivor’s story
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hi...
On 15 April 1989, I walked down a tunnel into Hillsborough, and into the sunshine, thinking: “Where would you rather be on a day like this?” An hour later, at just after 3pm, I am caught somewhere between this life and the next.
The game has kicked off. I can see people in the north stand following it with their eyes. Others are fixated on the space around me, and pointing furiously, or running down the gangways to the pitch, shouting at police officers. But they are far away. Closer, a few feet away, people are dead on their feet. The air is thick with the smell of excrement and urine. Three men are changing colour, from a pale violet to a ghostly pallor. Some have vomit streaming from their nostrils. People are weeping. Others are gibbering, trying to black out what is happening. I am 19, and I know that I am about to die.
As my brain begins to flood my body with endorphins, I am lifted above the crowd, in a bubble of warm water. It is strangely peaceful. Then shouting: rasping, aggressive shouting. In a Yorkshire accent: “Get back you stupid b
ds!”....
In July 1989, two plainclothes detectives arrived at my home in Stevenage. It was a Sunday, around 2pm, and the golf was on the TV. They sat me down, told me they would write down my statement by hand, and that I should then read it, and, if I was happy, sign it. So I began to tell them what had happened, and they began to laugh at me. They were soon snorting too, and yawning, and turning away to watch the golf. And nodding, sarcastically, when I told them about the failings of the police, and how they had abused our supporters as we tried to save the dead.
Now they handed over my statement. “Read it and sign it, would you?”
But I wasn’t happy. They had rewritten it; changed the meaning of certain incidents. Omitted key details. “Like what?” the officer said. Well, this happened, and this happened, I told them. He shook his head: “That didn’t happen.”
Repeatedly, they informed me that I was mistaken; that I hadn’t seen anything significant; that where I was in the stadium wasn’t that bad, and that I would not go forward as a witness at the inquests. My account was probably best simply filed away. So if I just sign this statement, we’ll be off, and you can get on with your life.
As I grew increasingly angry, the detective with the remote control in his hands pumped up the volume on the TV. I was shouting to be heard in my own living room, and they were trying to drown me out. Eventually, I signed that statement and they were gone. I could not have realised at the time, in the summer of 1989, that I was caught up in one of the biggest attempts to pervert the course of justice in British history. This was happening in real time. So I simply shut the front door, told them to “f
k off” under my breath, went up to my bedroom, and broke down....
There is much, now, for the public to ponder. This is the biggest cover-up in British history – or at least the largest ever exposed. And really, what was it all for? Was this crime committed, and British justice so contaminated, simply to save the reputations of a handful of incompetent or corrupt police officers? Certainly, it appears they were worth more to those in power than 96 dead football fans and their families; worth more than justice itself.
...
Red 4 said:
La Liga said:
Having been one and known loads of staff officers to various SCTs, I reach the opposite conclusion.
In that case, considering this thread is about Hillsborough, would you like to try and defend and justify the actions of the senior officers of South Yorkshire Police - both on the 15 April 1989, in the immediate aftermath, in the "cover-up campaign"/ slurring of Liverpool fans and in the 27 years following the disaster ?I'm failing to see how the public interest has been at the forefront of their actions and has been put before their own self-preservation and the reputation of the force.
Good luck.
There have been hundreds of ACPO-ranked officers since Hillsborough. You hear about very few of them as most just do what they should be doing, motivated by the right reasons. It's hardly unsurprising to find those who work with these people find them to be of the character expected and therefore void any negative generalisations about senior officers.
V8 Fettler said:
Scuttling away at 52? I thought the early retirement nonsense by plod had stopped. Couldn't he stay and perform useful tasks for the taxpayer?
Not for those with fewer than 10 to do when the changes were made. Why would he want to stay around when he's been treated like that?
V8 Fettler said:
Red 4 said:
In the post-op debrief on 15 April 1989, police officers were also ordered not to make notes in their pocketbooks of the events of that day.
Instead, senior officers wanted officer's "recollections of the day" recording on blank sheets of paper - not MG11s (statement forms, which would have been the norm).
The arse- covering started quickly, it seems.
Contemporaneous notes are a very influential record of events and can be referred to in the witness box. Did not officers protest at this order? Perhaps via the Federation?Instead, senior officers wanted officer's "recollections of the day" recording on blank sheets of paper - not MG11s (statement forms, which would have been the norm).
The arse- covering started quickly, it seems.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 29th April 21:28
SYP evidence said:
"He appeared reluctant to change any part of the statement stating that if we had not wanted opinion and comment in we should have made that point early on.
His apparent reluctance to change part of his statement stems partly from a recent court appearance at Doncaster by one his of colleagues who had submitted a statement, a cop of which had become attached to a court file. When this officer submitted a further statement for court, both statements were at court and he spent 2.5 hours trying to explain why there were 2 statements and they differed so much.
I explained to Finnerty that we had the only copies of his report and these did not go to W/Mids or anywhere else until they had been checked and signed by the officer making the statement and a supervisory [sic] checking the contents. He asked for his federation representative to be present. [Name redacted – Police Federation representative], his rep will be calling you to have a chat about it later, probably Monday.
[Redacted] accepts the implications that may arise out of the units and that we should not be handing ammunition to our opponents. I have given Finnerty a few days to mull this over in his mind."
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/SYP000096870001.html p33-35.His apparent reluctance to change part of his statement stems partly from a recent court appearance at Doncaster by one his of colleagues who had submitted a statement, a cop of which had become attached to a court file. When this officer submitted a further statement for court, both statements were at court and he spent 2.5 hours trying to explain why there were 2 statements and they differed so much.
I explained to Finnerty that we had the only copies of his report and these did not go to W/Mids or anywhere else until they had been checked and signed by the officer making the statement and a supervisory [sic] checking the contents. He asked for his federation representative to be present. [Name redacted – Police Federation representative], his rep will be calling you to have a chat about it later, probably Monday.
[Redacted] accepts the implications that may arise out of the units and that we should not be handing ammunition to our opponents. I have given Finnerty a few days to mull this over in his mind."
SYP Police Federation were actively involved in spreading the stories of drunk, out of control, ticketless fans who pickpocketed the dead.
As for why pocket book statements weren't taken:
SYP evidence said:
Every officer is going to have to be interviewed and a statement obtained and they are going to have to be interviewed by Detectives. Duty statements are out.
[...]
I would say to you all, anyone who was involved yesterday, after this briefing take time to sit down and make seme notes. Is there anyone in this briefing who has made a pocket book brief? No one. Do not start making pocket book entries. Yesterday was the most traumatic experience of my life and large chunks of it I cannot remember. I am sure it must be the same for many of you.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000010040001.pdf[...]
I would say to you all, anyone who was involved yesterday, after this briefing take time to sit down and make seme notes. Is there anyone in this briefing who has made a pocket book brief? No one. Do not start making pocket book entries. Yesterday was the most traumatic experience of my life and large chunks of it I cannot remember. I am sure it must be the same for many of you.
The interviews never took place and instead the written recollections became the basis of statements.
XCP said:
vonuber said:
This is the same lot who did Ogreave isn't it - they lied and falsified accounts of that too it seems.
There were officers from many forces at Orgreave.Edited by The Mad Monk on Monday 2nd May 08:33
La Liga said:
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Why would he want to stay around when he's been treated like that?
The competence of the SYP PCC has to be questioned, he had plenty of time to put into place contingency plans to deal with the possible inquest verdicts, instead he's flailing and failing.
V8 Fettler said:
The opportunity to right a wrong, set things straight, public service ethos etc. Easier to scuttle away though.
Regardless of what he wants to do, it's not in his control. He won't be offered a new contract. He was going to retire in any event in November. If I'd worked hard in the public service for 30+ years and then got shafted at the end of my career, I doubt I'd be motivated to return. I expect most on here would be the same. We wouldn't know until in that position.
V8 Fettler said:
The competence of the SYP PCC has to be questioned, he had plenty of time to put into place contingency plans to deal with the possible inquest verdicts, instead he's flailing and failing.
It comes across as highly reactionary and ill-thought out. I wouldn't be surprised if there were calls made from central Labour. Unfortunately, having seen the interviews with the other PCCs for South Yorkshire (the UKIP chap is especially comical), he's still the best of a bad bunch.
La Liga said "If I'd worked hard in the public service for 30+ years and then got shafted at the end of my career, I doubt I'd be motivated to return."
Hopefully, come November he will be gone. I do not think his absence will do anything to repair the damage done to the police's reputation. I do not think anything will. I suspect further revelations will just confirm suspicions of how far the corruption extends.
Hopefully, come November he will be gone. I do not think his absence will do anything to repair the damage done to the police's reputation. I do not think anything will. I suspect further revelations will just confirm suspicions of how far the corruption extends.
davidball said:
Hopefully, come November he will be gone. I do not think his absence will do anything to repair the damage done to the police's reputation.
I hope he'll be gone then, too, since that was when he was wanting to retire. Ultimately, when you look at objective sources, trust and confidence in the police largely remains unchanged and has done for decades. Of course, a lot of people aren't blessed with the 'skill' of having some perspective or being able to see the bigger picture.
For example, Ipsos MORI have been collecting data on 'trust in professions' for over 3 decades. Trust has pretty much been the same over those three decades and varies very little with the police and most other professions (the clergy are less trusted, according to the data now, though).
I expect because day-to-day experiences don't reflect occasional major negatives.
La Liga said:
Ultimately, when you look at objective sources, trust and confidence in the police largely remains unchanged and has done for decades. Of course, a lot of people aren't blessed with the 'skill' of having some perspective or being able to see the bigger picture.
I won't mention Orgreave or Rotherham child sex exploitation - just the events of the last week.
Please use your "skill" and "ability to see the bigger picture" to convince me ...
You need a reality check, mate.
The Chief has gone (whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant) and nobody wants the poison chalice - I'd have thought that says it all really.
Red 4 said:
Are you seriously suggesting that public confidence and trust in South Yorkshire Police has not been affected due to the events of the last week?
I won't mention Orgreave or Rotherham child sex exploitation - just the events of the last week.
Please use your "skill" and "ability to see the bigger picture" to convince me...
He was talking about the 'police's' reputation, as was I. You've narrowed it down to one force. I won't mention Orgreave or Rotherham child sex exploitation - just the events of the last week.
Please use your "skill" and "ability to see the bigger picture" to convince me...
I'd be careful to make assumptions. Measurements were taken during the 'Plebgate' affair and found no deviation from the norm.
Even if there were deviations, they're probable to 'regress to the mean' and overall trend when keeping a little more perspective on time i.e. not just thinking about the few days Hillsborough is in the media.
Red 4 said:
You need a reality check, mate.
The Chief has gone (whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant) and nobody wants the poison chalice - I'd have thought that says it all really.
Have you spoken to all 40+ Deputy Chief Constables? You must have to states no-one wants it. I expect they'll have little issue finding candidates come the selection process for the new CC. The Chief has gone (whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant) and nobody wants the poison chalice - I'd have thought that says it all really.
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