EU Referendum - decided how to vote yet?

[Esseesse]

alfie2244 said:

irocfan said:

V88Dicky said:

My mind was made up years ago, and nothing has materialised since to change it.

My resolve has only strengthened in the last 20 years or so

this ^^^

this X 2 ^^^

This x3.

The first time I think I can remember was in about 2005/6 at University with for the first time unlimited fast internet, and YouTube had been invented. And I watched this Farage character, and then another video. And then I went off to see if what he was saying was true, as it dawned on me to my amazement that the UK was ruled from abroad.

[Esseesse]

eldar said:

Interesting. I'm old enough to have voted in the last EEC referendum, where I voted yes, no mention of a federal Europe then.

I am genuinely conflicted now, and the various arguments seem all fear based, which I find unconvincing.

Assuming I can't decide myself, I'll ask my kids how they are voting, and do the same, they'll be around longer than me to live with their decisions....

Go and read the 'No' campaign booklet from last time. Where we are now was known then. The No campaign from last time was in time proven to be right, those on the Leave side will also be proven to be right in time.

Don't abdicate your responsibility to your children, vote for what you think is in the country's best interest. If you really don't have a clue, don't vote.

[eldar]

Esseesse said:

Go and read the 'No' campaign booklet from last time. Where we are now was known then. The No campaign from last time was in time proven to be right, those on the Leave side will also be proven to be right in time.

Don't abdicate your responsibility to your children, vote for what you think is in the country's best interest. If you really don't have a clue, don't vote.

There is a lot of truth in that. But I can't, with a clear conscience, not vote.

The EU is corrupt, bureaucratic and ineffective. That will very slowly change regardless of our membership, and won't go away.

Staying in will give us more influence to accelerate that change. Leaving will free us, to a degree, to develop our own policies.

Immigration doesn't worry me either way, nor does the straight cucumber rubbish worry me.

One thing is certain, we can't continue to sit on the fence, so I welcome the in/out choice.

At the moment in wavering towards out.

[Murph7355]

eldar said:

...
The EU is corrupt, bureaucratic and ineffective. That will very slowly change regardless of our membership, and won't go away.

Staying in will give us more influence to accelerate that change. Leaving will free us, to a degree, to develop our own policies.
....

This is one of the paths of reasoning that I don't understand.

We've been "in" for over 40yrs and all that has happened is the bureaucracy and ineffectiveness and corruption have become steadily worse and are showing only one trajectory (worse still). What on earth can make anyone think that us remaining in now will see any change in that trajectory over the next 40yrs?

One of the biggest net contributors (2nd or 3rd IIRC) to the funds of the EU is in real risk of leaving the project which will leave an absolutely massive hole that the likes of Turkey or other states potentially on the entry list will never be able to fill in a thousand years. And yet still the EU will not radically reform its behaviour. I'm not even convinced the pitiful concessions Cameron thinks he has are as binding as we are led to believe and that the EU leaders won't have some means of twisting out of them.

Thinking we can change it from the inside just seems insane to me, when we've proven over a very extended period that this results in no change in trajectory.

If people want a federal Europe and think that is in the best interests of this country then that's fair enough. Remaining in the EU is the route to that as that is what the EU leaders want and that is what its members will get. But if that's not what we want, we need to be very wary of expecting radical change as that is not what the EU is about and quite categorically not what has happened in the last 40yrs.

It's like the abusive relationship where the injured party continues to be harmed on the understanding that "it'll change" and that "they love me really".

Bonkers.

[RobDickinson]

Im not sure I can remember the UK ever once significantly influencing the european farce.

[crankedup]

deltaevo16 said:

Undemocratic, corrupt, pushing for even more Federalism, Its communism by another name.
What's to like. It's out for me.

Could'nt agree more, if I wanted to live in Moscow then I would, that's my choice as is voting to leave the E.U.

[Halb]

Esseesse said:

Go and read the 'No' campaign booklet from last time.

Is this available online?

[Esseesse]

Halb said:

Esseesse said:

Go and read the 'No' campaign booklet from last time.

Is this available online?

I've occasionally posted the odd page on here where relevant.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/08/the...

Particularly interesting page from the No leaflet WRT all the steel stuff in recent months is the one that says 'JOBS, OUR TRADE' in large letters at the top.

[Bullett]

I was on the fence until recently.
I think I'm now solidly in the out camp. Not because the out campaign is good but because the in camp is bad. For 40 years of membership they should be running a positive campaign showing what good the EU has done for the country but instead they are running a bad things will happen if we leave.

Much like the bad things will happen if we don't join the Euro.

[John145]

Esseesse said:

Halb said:

Esseesse said:

Go and read the 'No' campaign booklet from last time.

Is this available online?

I've occasionally posted the odd page on here where relevant.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/08/the...

Particularly interesting page from the No leaflet WRT all the steel stuff in recent months is the one that says 'JOBS, OUR TRADE' in large letters at the top.

Obviously the 2016 Remain campaign didn't need to do any research for new reasons, just copy and paste the 1975 reasons.

Same st, different millennium.

[Toltec]

I don't normally stray into this part of the site, perhaps an indication of how difficult and important I believe this vote to be.

Interesting comments about staying in to effect change being pointless as it hasn't happened in the last 40 years so why would it happen now.

I have a couple of points, firstly technology should be allowing us more regional and local democratic control, call it micro voting if you like. The EU is the opposite of this, policy and rules being created and decided by a small group.

Secondly, history shows us that forcing populations with different cultural and national drives under one roof does not end well.

Just look at Scotland, Wales, Manchester and Birmingham for examples of people wanting more local control rather than centralised government. I believe people want to be able to put faces, names and accountability to those with control over them.

Much as I think the 'What has the EU ever done for us?' has a large pile of positives the current path to faceless EU bureaucracy overwhelms it all.

I am a reluctant out.

[anonymous-user]

Firmly in the OUT camp for all the reasons that have previously been alluded to.

[FiF]

Have posted on the odd thread or two on this.

I'm old enough to have voted in the 75 referendum, and voted out. As others have referenced it was difficult to find objective information then, no Internet, didn't have a telly, no car radio, impoverished post grad student at the time. All the papers, except the Morning Star, were solidly for in, writing the most amazing bullst so it was time to get off my backside and find stuff out.

For some reason started with researching the Common Agricultural Policy, that decided my vote on its own.

Obviously on the losing side, just got on with it, but happy that made the right call then.

Another anecdote, every year the uni politics dept runs an EU module. At the beginning of the first lecture, the course principal asks the students to vote on the electronic voting system to register their attitude towards the EU. Usual stuff, from totally for the EU via strongly for, somewhat in favour, through to the opposite end of the spectrum. From a mixture of UK, EU and International undergrads the start vote is generally the same, strong feelings in favour with a smattering of neutrals.

Same vote at the end of the module, except now they understand what the EU is about, how it works, the democratic deficit, but now again there is a smattering of neither for nor against, the rest are all dead set with a negative view. Which always pisses the lecturer off as he's an ex commission bod and is we think in favour. Mind you most boring lecturer in kingdom come which might not help.

[Pan Pan Pan]

As posted elsewhere for personal reasons I started out with a borderline leaning towards the UK remaining in a reformed EU. I had looked at the history of the UK`s relationship with the EU long before the referendum, and hoped that CMD could actually achieve what he said he would in terms of a getting the EU to reform its ways, particularly with regard to the CAP. Bliar tried to get the EU to reform the CAP by giving the EU a significant part of the UK`s EU rebate, but they just took the extra billions of UK taxpayers cash and slammed the door in his face, making no changes whatsoever to the CAP, so the UK taxpayer ended up paying the EU extra billions of pounds for absolutely nothing. As I started taking more notice of how the EU operated, I realized that it had become a corrupt, undemocratic, money grabbing, money wasting, inefficient, bullying, over regulating, unfair monster, which had stated it had no intention of cleaning up its act.
For this reason I am firmly in the OUT group. to use an analogy, I don't want the UK to end up like a battered spouse, who does not like the situation they are in, and who has finally realized they can do nothing to change it, but stick with it because bad though it is, they are too afraid to strike out on their own.
There are some here who want the UK to remain in this situation, but they are probably the ones making a fortune out of selling the battered spouse bandages, plasters, and bruise medication.
I am hoping the 23rd turns out to be the UK`s Independence Day, and we leave the corrupt bullying, unaccountable EU to sink or swim without the UK propping it up.
Would love to see the faces of the EU elite when they realize its second largest net contributor of funds is walking away, and they will have to fork out with their own Euros (which is a failing currency by the way) to keep the whole failing corrupt mess alive.

[over_the_hill]

Although the polls put the scores at about equal with a slight leaning towards "Remain", I think when it comes to actually getting off ones arse, it's normally the anti-group (or Leavers) that turn out in greater numbers. Those happy with the staus-quo are more likely to not bother.

[951TSE]

over_the_hill said:

Although the polls put the scores at about equal with a slight leaning towards "Remain", I think when it comes to actually getting off ones arse, it's normally the anti-group (or Leavers) that turn out in greater numbers. Those happy with the status-quo are more likely to not bother.

Good, because a vote remain isn't for the status quo although I'm not sure all of the 'remainers' get that?

Does anyone know what the sample size for the various polls are? I'm sure I could find it if I looked, it's just that the PH poll isn't the only one I've seen where the Leave vote is a lot higher than the reported polls are showing.

[crankedup]

RobDickinson said:

crankedup said:

I'm voting out. It will be the only opportunity to get out, I figure that living in a Country dictated to by unelected faceless beauracy is not for me. I'm to old to be further overly affected if we stay in and my considerations for my son daughter grandson is that if they want a better life they will nip over to New Zealand.

Which is what I done 11 years ago.

Apparently I can still register and vote (15 years is the cut-off). I really think the UK needs to leave Europe, its a basket case politically, they can have solid trade treaties like before , business wont be hurt.

I'll refrain from voting though as it isnt now my problem...

Our lad is going over to N.Z. At end of summer, five or six weeks just for a look and 'feel'. He is sick and tired of what the U.K. has/is become in terms of E.U., benifit handouts, taxation. His boss apparently has property in N.Z. so hopefully should be able to transfer his work into N.Z.
If he goes then we will consider moving also, we are both retired financially independent. Daughter and her family have also expressed an interest. Big changes looming or not, time will tell.

Edited by crankedup on Friday 29th April 17:12

[s2art]

RobDickinson said:

Which is what I done 11 years ago.

Apparently I can still register and vote (15 years is the cut-off). I really think the UK needs to leave Europe, its a basket case politically, they can have solid trade treaties like before , business wont be hurt.

I'll refrain from voting though as it isnt now my problem...

Please register and vote. If we vote out then NZ will be amongst the first in the queue for a trade deal. That would be good for NZ (and hence you) and the UK.

[crankedup]

Toltec said:

I don't normally stray into this part of the site, perhaps an indication of how difficult and important I believe this vote to be.

Interesting comments about staying in to effect change being pointless as it hasn't happened in the last 40 years so why would it happen now.

I have a couple of points, firstly technology should be allowing us more regional and local democratic control, call it micro voting if you like. The EU is the opposite of this, policy and rules being created and decided by a small group.

Secondly, history shows us that forcing populations with different cultural and national drives under one roof does not end well.

Just look at Scotland, Wales, Manchester and Birmingham for examples of people wanting more local control rather than centralised government. I believe people want to be able to put faces, names and accountability to those with control over them.

Much as I think the 'What has the EU ever done for us?' has a large pile of positives the current path to faceless EU bureaucracy overwhelms it all.

I am a reluctant out.

[crankedup]

Toltec said:

I don't normally stray into this part of the site, perhaps an indication of how difficult and important I believe this vote to be.

Interesting comments about staying in to effect change being pointless as it hasn't happened in the last 40 years so why would it happen now.

I have a couple of points, firstly technology should be allowing us more regional and local democratic control, call it micro voting if you like. The EU is the opposite of this, policy and rules being created and decided by a small group.

Secondly, history shows us that forcing populations with different cultural and national drives under one roof does not end well.

Just look at Scotland, Wales, Manchester and Birmingham for examples of people wanting more local control rather than centralised government. I believe people want to be able to put faces, names and accountability to those with control over them.

Much as I think the 'What has the EU ever done for us?' has a large pile of positives the current path to faceless EU bureaucracy overwhelms it all.

I am a reluctant out.

This is an aspect which is odd, the Government pushing hard for County level devolution and yet wants to remain in the E.U. Obviously I am missing something.