EU Referendum - decided how to vote yet?

[Bullett]

primary colours said:

Personally I'm edging towards an In vote at the moment, on the basis of 'better the devil you know'

This isn't true though is it? An in vote is not a vote for the status quo.
You're not voting for it to stay the same, you are voting to stay in the EU for better or for worse.
And the EU has the aim of ever closer union.

[Jinx]

primary colours said:

Personally I'm edging towards an In vote at the moment, on the basis of 'better the devil you know', but am incredibly uncomfortable that I'm making such an important decision on foundations of sand. I watched from afar the lies, manipulation and wishful thinking that dominated the Scottish referendum debate and thought that we would get something much better, much more adult, with this referendum and have been bitterly disappointed by the proponents on both sides of the argument. The In campaign have not played up the positives of staying in, preferring to deluge us with threats of poverty if we leave, the Outers have adopted a Salmonesque 'streets paved with gold' approach if we leave, without presenting a single, substantiated strategy as to how this will be achieved. It has been, and no doubt will continue to be, a pathetic bickering contest between individuals who are paid to present us, their employers, with relevant facts in order that we can make an informed decision on our future. All I can say is shame on all of those involved, none of whom have done the job they are paid to do and whose negligence, whichever way the vote goes, runs the risk of missing one of the greatest opportunities to make a difference that this generation will have.

We know what IN looks like - and what it is heading towards. We also know the EU is unwilling to waver from its path even with the threat of one of the largest contributors leaving. So out for me - even if it means a pay cut and increased roaming charges

[deltaevo16]

Jinx said:

We know what IN looks like - and what it is heading towards. We also know the EU is unwilling to waver from its path even with the threat of one of the largest contributors leaving. So out for me - even if it means a pay cut and increased roaming charges

I cannot fathom the reasoning behind those wanting to stay, it's like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

The argument put forward seems to be around that by being in we can get reform, Really. Absolutely zero chance of that happening. More and more control is on the horizon not less. More shackling us to basket case economies, and the deal currently being pursued to allow Turkey and the Ukraine to join is totally bonkers.

[primary colours]

I fully understand the raised eyebrows, but the way I, or you, intend to vote is missing the point of my post, the fact is that none of us are making an informed decision because we haven't been given the means to do so. I'm clearly being risk-adverse but prefer that option to a blind step into the dark. I see the Out campaign as being the equivalent of the SNP's position in the Scottish independence vote - it'll be nothing but sunshine outside of the EU, we'll get preferential treatment when we come to negotiate our own trade treaties, apparently the rest of the world will be kicking down the doors to invite us in - but don't ask how, or when, because there's bugger all but vague platitudes to go on at this point. The EU is a million miles from perfect but leaving is akin to stepping off Beachy Head and hoping, just hoping, that someone has had the foresight to rig up a safety net. I dislike being dictated to by Brussels as much as the next man and if this was a vote to enter the EU or not I'd be putting a big fat X next to the "count me out" box, but we're already in and have severed any favourable independent trade relationships. Persuade me that these can be reintroduced quick enough that I won't experience a negative impact and I'll change colours quicker than a Scouse bird prepping for a hen night but the Out campaign has singularly failed to do this. To draw yet another comparison to the Scottish vote, Salmond promised Quails eggs and nectar for all based on the income from oil, fast forward and where would the Scottish economy be heading now if the result had been a 'Yes'?

[powerstroke]

primary colours said:

I fully understand the raised eyebrows, but the way I, or you, intend to vote is missing the point of my post, the fact is that none of us are making an informed decision because we haven't been given the means to do so. I'm clearly being risk-adverse but prefer that option to a blind step into the dark. I see the Out campaign as being the equivalent of the SNP's position in the Scottish independence vote - it'll be nothing but sunshine outside of the EU, we'll get preferential treatment when we come to negotiate our own trade treaties, apparently the rest of the world will be kicking down the doors to invite us in - but don't ask how, or when, because there's bugger all but vague platitudes to go on at this point. The EU is a million miles from perfect but leaving is akin to stepping off Beachy Head and hoping, just hoping, that someone has had the foresight to rig up a safety net. I dislike being dictated to by Brussels as much as the next man and if this was a vote to enter the EU or not I'd be putting a big fat X next to the "count me out" box, but we're already in and have severed any favourable independent trade relationships. Persuade me that these can be reintroduced quick enough that I won't experience a negative impact and I'll change colours quicker than a Scouse bird prepping for a hen night but the Out campaign has singularly failed to do this. To draw yet another comparison to the Scottish vote, Salmond promised Quails eggs and nectar for all based on the income from oil, fast forward and where would the Scottish economy be heading now if the result had been a 'Yes'?

The Scottish independence is totally different they wanted out of the union because of their childish ,chippy and inward looking attitude fueled by some idea that they could shut themselves off and build a little socilialist
thiefedom , and they would be free of the nasty English...
the leave the EU thing is fueled by a desire to trade and re build relationships with and for world trade outward looking and un hindered by EU berucracy , red tape and nations that don't hold our values ...we know we don't need the EU they need us but is that top heavy that only it imploading will it change ,
those happy with the EU vote stay but if you think it will change with our input
forget it, if you want change vote out this will cause it as a minimum to have a re think about improving otherwise other members will want to leave also ....

[ukaskew]

My heart says one thing, my job is far easier/more secure due to the other!

[Toltec]

primary colours said:

The EU is a million miles from perfect but leaving is akin to stepping off Beachy Head and hoping, just hoping, that someone has had the foresight to rig up a safety net.

You must have seen the earlier comments that staying is like hoping an abusive partner will change, what you are saying is that leaving will also mean you might be financially worse off so you would rather put up with the beatings.

I agree that the official arguments from both sides are poor.

[gothatway]

primary colours said:

leaving is akin to stepping off Beachy Head and hoping, just hoping, that someone has had the foresight to rig up a safety net.

I think a more appropriate metaphor is that it's akin to being in a boat with 27 other rowers. The boat is letting in water, and some of the rowers are baling it out - but not keeping up with the influx. Others are incapable of either rowing or baling, but are very happy to be going somewhere with their friends. Most of the rowers are taking the boat towards somewhere we don't want to go. Do we jump and swim towards the receding coast, or stay with the sinking boat ?

[Funkycoldribena]

gothatway said:

primary colours said:

leaving is akin to stepping off Beachy Head and hoping, just hoping, that someone has had the foresight to rig up a safety net.

I think a more appropriate metaphor is that it's akin to being in a boat with 27 other rowers. The boat is letting in water, and some of the rowers are baling it out - but not keeping up with the influx. Others are incapable of either rowing or baling, but are very happy to be going somewhere with their friends. Most of the rowers are taking the boat towards somewhere we don't want to go. Do we jump and swim towards the receding coast, or stay with the sinking boat ?

Far more accurate.
I just dont understand the remainers views,absolutely baffling.I'd understand it if Greece was awash with cash,Spain had full employment,we'd had a nice rebate of 1.7 bn last year and Brussels was opening voting booths on every european street corner.Maybe it'll all happen next year....

[V88Dicky]

ukaskew said:

My heart says one thing, my job is far easier/more secure due to the other!

My heart says, that if my job depended so much on the EU, I would, if need be, get another job. Because I'm not so useless that I can't change jobs.

Changing jobs is hardly the end of the world, unlike being part of a European Federal State.


'There are none so blind, than those that can't see'

[0000]

gothatway said:

I think a more appropriate metaphor is that it's akin to being in a boat with 27 other rowers. The boat is letting in water, and some of the rowers are baling it out - but not keeping up with the influx. Others are incapable of either rowing or baling, but are very happy to be going somewhere with their friends. Most of the rowers are taking the boat towards somewhere we don't want to go. Do we jump and swim towards the receding coast, or stay with the sinking boat ?

Most of the rowers are chucking water in the boat.