Red Ken suspended

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jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
So it's all about knowingly likening someone to being like someone else.

And because the person in question follows the Jewish faith, and in the past members of the Jewish faith were imprisoned and killed by guards at a German concentration camp, it's in bad taste to liken someone who is Jewish to the someone who acts like one of those guards?

I'm just trying to be exactly clear here why that person would be specifically offended.


So, strip away everything except the intent to offend. If KL had used another historical stereotype that are basically overpowering obnoxious offensive people to offend the person, then that would have been ok?

Or is the core issue the fact that KL wanted to cause offense?

Would it have been ok to be offensive by using another stereotype of a character that hasn't involved the Jews at some point in history?
Stripping everything away and looking at the core issues, to use your language, this all started with an argument of fact, not opinion

Someone argued that a fact I pointed out was wrong. I've been arguing that it was correct.


Mr Whippy

28,947 posts

240 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jonby said:
Mr Whippy said:
So it's all about knowingly likening someone to being like someone else.

And because the person in question follows the Jewish faith, and in the past members of the Jewish faith were imprisoned and killed by guards at a German concentration camp, it's in bad taste to liken someone who is Jewish to the someone who acts like one of those guards?

I'm just trying to be exactly clear here why that person would be specifically offended.


So, strip away everything except the intent to offend. If KL had used another historical stereotype that are basically overpowering obnoxious offensive people to offend the person, then that would have been ok?

Or is the core issue the fact that KL wanted to cause offense?

Would it have been ok to be offensive by using another stereotype of a character that hasn't involved the Jews at some point in history?
Stripping everything away and looking at the core issues, to use your language, this all started with an argument of fact, not opinion

Someone argued that a fact I pointed out was wrong. I've been arguing that it was correct.
Sorry, I thought the fact you were arguing was the fact KL intended to offend more offensively?

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jonby said:
Stripping everything away and looking at the core issues, to use your language, this all started with an argument of fact, not opinion

Someone argued that a fact I pointed out was wrong. I've been arguing that it was correct.
Jonby

You were right, they were definitely wrong. And KL is a nasty, ignorant, hypocritical racist.

Mr Whippy

28,947 posts

240 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
jonby said:
Stripping everything away and looking at the core issues, to use your language, this all started with an argument of fact, not opinion

Someone argued that a fact I pointed out was wrong. I've been arguing that it was correct.
Jonby

You were right, they were definitely wrong. And KL is a nasty, ignorant, hypocritical racist.
A socialist that is also a racist?

This doesn't bode well for the EU government, it's full of socialists!

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
A socialist that is also a racist?

This doesn't bode well for the EU government, it's full of socialists!
You can be one without being the other.

chris watton

22,477 posts

259 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
It does seem that some socialists, more than any other group, like to gloat and even celebrate the deaths of whom they perceive as 'enemies'

It is hardly surprising that things inevitably goes tits up when they're drunk with power. All for the greater good, comrade, of course...

RottenIcons

625 posts

97 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
RottenIcons said:
FredClogs said:
That's all well and good but the premise of your soliloquy is that there is an imperative truth, which of course there isn't - on this subject more than any, you big banana headed loafer.
All truths are of their time alone. So the passing of time puts all truth into question, but that is not a moral issue, the moral issue is equally contemporaneous so that each imperative truth is a marker.

People here hated my early posts that said where I was and what I was eating/doing and where I was when I finished saying my piece. It was ridiculed, but it was important in that it put one of those markers down as being of that particular time or contemporaneous. I've stopped doing it because it seemed to annoy people here.


Edited by RottenIcons on Friday 29th April 11:27
That's ok then, just don't muscle your opinion loudly and proudly and excuse any offense under the guise that you're only speaking the truth. Given your contribution to the Hillsbrough thread on the letter the lovely Bernard Ingram wrote to the families.

My thoughts, as I watch the clock tick to 12 eating a slice of battenburg awaiting the long wet weekend...

(I wouldn't confuse ridicule or even imitation for hatred.)
My words have no additional weight or muscle to any other's here, in fact having been here for just 2 months I would say far less than most due to unfamiliarity. The letter was from 1996, talking about events in 1989 having been investigated and at the time the outcome was different from that of a few days ago. I think that confirms all I have written about moral truth being ONLY of a specific time.

Immitation, it's the sincerest form of flattery and it pleases me no end that you choose, of your own free will, to flatter me. Next time try a little prose, take inspiration from Shakespeares sonnets, I do. "Shall I compare thee to a moose, thou art more..." smile

Saddle bum

4,211 posts

218 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Personally, I don't get antisemitism.

I was bought up in Tottenham, next to the Jewish quarter in Stamford Hill. My school had a fair number of Jewish students, but the funny thing is that no-one really noticed until we started having reunions some 50 years later. The school roll had been created and the names told the story. I never experienced antisemi0tic comments during my childhood.

I was christened Roman Catholic, but not bought up as one. The one thing I did notice is that if anyone made a prejudicial anti-catholic remark to some Mick, he was liable to get a thick ear. This something that most Jews tend not to do. More's the pity.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Dates back to Constantine and the Romans here in the West.

Anti Jewish feeling amongst Arabs goes back much further.

avinalarf

6,438 posts

141 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
What I find difficult to fathom is why anyone might call another person a "concentration camp guard."
What mindset would one have to think to use that phrase either to admonish or curse.
If someone upset me I might say " fk of you ahole" or "bks you old ".
I have been told,in confidence,that Livingstone has a little red book containing phrases that he has composed especially designed to insult/cajole/threaten persons of the Jewish persuasion.

glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
I thought the concentration camp guard thing was a remark on the "just doing my job" comment from the Journo, ala "just following orders".

avinalarf

6,438 posts

141 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
glazbagun said:
I thought the concentration camp guard thing was a remark on the "just doing my job" comment from the Journo, ala "just following orders".
Off the cuff ,I may have retorted..."well do it somewhere-else".
Seriously though,have you thought to use that phrase ?
The point is that Livingstone is in a position of power and influence and he must be aware that the language he uses is important.
It is not just a one off,he really seems to relish being obnoxious.
I must admit to not liking him. Not just because of his alledged prejudice but he comes across to me as a bully and when confronted puts on the cuddly Ken act and smiling and giggling.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
glazbagun said:
I thought the concentration camp guard thing was a remark on the "just doing my job" comment from the Journo, ala "just following orders".
No, that came later

Transcript of the conversation between OF & KL in full, from the court papers here. I understand it's a transcript of a recording

http://www.5rb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Livi...




“OF. Mr Liv(?) … Evening Standard. How did –
[?]. [?someone in the background]
KL. Oh how awful for you.
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. Have you thought of having treatment?
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. Have you thought of having treatment?
OF. Was it a good party? What did it mean to you?
KL. What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?
OF. No, I’m Jewish. I wasn’t a German war criminal
KL. Ah right.
OF. … I’m actually quite offended by that. So how did tonight go?
KL. Well you might be, but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard.
You’re just doing it ‘cause you’re paid to aren’t you?
OF. Great, I’ve got you on record for that. So how did tonight go?
KL. It’s nothing to do with you because your paper is a load of scumbags –
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. … It’s reactionary bigots …
OF. I’m a journalist. I’m doing my job …
KL. … and who supported fascism.
OF. … I’m only asking for a simple comment. I’m only asking for a comment.
KL. Well work for a paper that isn’t …
OF. I’m only asking for a comment.
KL. … that hadn’t a record of supporting fascism.
OF. You’ve accused me …

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
An article has just appeared today on an actual concentration camp guard

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3565725/Fo...


Read the story

Look at the pictures

Then justify how it's remotely OK for KL to liken someone who has just said they are jewish, to a concentration camp guard


avinalarf

6,438 posts

141 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jonby said:
glazbagun said:
I thought the concentration camp guard thing was a remark on the "just doing my job" comment from the Journo, ala "just following orders".
No, that came later

Transcript of the conversation between OF & KL in full, from the court papers here. I understand it's a transcript of a recording

http://www.5rb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Livi...




“OF. Mr Liv(?) … Evening Standard. How did –
[?]. [?someone in the background]
KL. Oh how awful for you.
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. Have you thought of having treatment?
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. Have you thought of having treatment?
OF. Was it a good party? What did it mean to you?
KL. What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?
OF. No, I’m Jewish. I wasn’t a German war criminal
KL. Ah right.
OF. … I’m actually quite offended by that. So how did tonight go?
KL. Well you might be, but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard.
You’re just doing it ‘cause you’re paid to aren’t you?
OF. Great, I’ve got you on record for that. So how did tonight go?
KL. It’s nothing to do with you because your paper is a load of scumbags –
OF. How did tonight go?
KL. … It’s reactionary bigots …
OF. I’m a journalist. I’m doing my job …
KL. … and who supported fascism.
OF. … I’m only asking for a simple comment. I’m only asking for a comment.
KL. Well work for a paper that isn’t …
OF. I’m only asking for a comment.
KL. … that hadn’t a record of supporting fascism.
OF. You’ve accused me …
Well there you are....nothing to see here.
Obviously cuddly Ken did nowt wrong.
All quite normal to ask someone "were you a German war criminal."
Trips off my tongue every day.
The geezer's lost it.

simonrockman

6,843 posts

254 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
One of the many, many double standards Livingstone applies is to the Evening Standard. He argues that everyone who associated them with the paper under Lord Rothermere's control was automatically a fascist. Everyone except of course him, since he use to write restaurant reviews for the paper, and he has some bks response to that about it being in a bubble of not being fascist when Max Hastings was the editor. Really it's just Ken being so wrapped up in his head he can't see the truth.

He thinks the Standard is out to get him when it was actually The Standard undermining Geoffrey Archer which won Livingstone the first mayoral election.

Still Ken has double standards all round. When he became mayor he said the Routemaster would go on for another seventeen years and be replaced by a bus built by Londoners for Londoners. He promptly killed the routemaster and imported bendy buses. When it became clear how massive a mistake this was he claimed they were "an experiment". You can find a Youtube clip of him telling me that his changing prices on congestion charge was because he "changed his mind".

The truth is many in the Labour party hate him too, but he has a strong following and they need, not him but his followers. Now they will have to look at that. He's been expelled once and suspended twice. He's clearly poison for the party and this is one particular battle he can't bounce back from. There is so much pressure on the Corbyn leadership to be seen to do something about anti-semitisim they have no option but to throw him under the bus (ideally a NBFL) in a very public way. He will be found guilty of bringing the party into disrepute and expelled.

He misread this one very badly, I've never seen anyone make quite such a mess of the Godwin defence (banned at the dinner table in our house as it's lazy arguing), he needed to realise that Naz Shah said that moving Israel to America was a "solution for the Jews" and not a "solution for the Zionists", meaning there wasn't even an attempt to hide behind the word Zionist.

I'm still sorry that when I met him I didn't thump him. Maybe the chance will present itself again.

Simon


popeyewhite

19,631 posts

119 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jonby said:
An article has just appeared today on an actual concentration camp guard

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3565725/Fo...


Read the story

Look at the pictures

Then justify how it's remotely OK for KL to liken someone who has just said they are jewish, to a concentration camp guard
Doesn't really make any difference who they are. If you could show without doubt KL only said it because the pushy fool was Jewish then maybe...Can you?

glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
avinalarf said:
Off the cuff ,I may have retorted..."well do it somewhere-else".
Seriously though,have you thought to use that phrase ?
The point is that Livingstone is in a position of power and influence and he must be aware that the language he uses is important.
It is not just a one off,he really seems to relish being obnoxious.
I must admit to not liking him. Not just because of his alledged prejudice but he comes across to me as a bully and when confronted puts on the cuddly Ken act and smiling and giggling.
No, it does sound odd I agree. Under my breath I may have called parking wardens fascists and have probably called people Nazi's or Stasi if I felt a similarity worthy of the insult, but he's twice my age so maybe it seems more common among that generation. I know that the phrase "little Hitler" was used a lot by my late Grandad.

I don't doubt that he set out to be as insulting as possible and have never liked him either, but I'm not sure he is a raving Nazi apologist or an anti-semetic as opposed to just being a bit of a prick.

If you accused you Afro-American boss of being a Slaver for overworking/ underpaying you, would that (aside from making you a bit of a cock) make you a racist, or would it simply be an insult tailored to hurt them more than something generic like calling them a knob?

Edited by glazbagun on Friday 29th April 16:47

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
Doesn't really make any difference who they are. If you could show without doubt KL only said it because the pushy fool was Jewish then maybe...Can you?
No

Are you suggesting that if KL was going to say it anyway, the fact he was then informed by the journo he was jewish shouldn't have impacted on him still saying it ?

The journo was indeed pushy. It was discussed in the hearing that KL was not acting in an official capacity when he said what he did. But if he can't keep his cool with those questions, or if he did keep his cool but said what he did in a calculated fashion, in either instance he shouldn't be a professional career politician.

popeyewhite

19,631 posts

119 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jonby said:
popeyewhite said:
Doesn't really make any difference who they are. If you could show without doubt KL only said it because the pushy fool was Jewish then maybe...Can you?
No
Then it's not racist and ends there.