Red Ken suspended
Discussion
RottenIcons said:
Let's look at this head-on. The leader in the area was the Grand Mufti, he was the only person who give safe passage to any person passing through the land his people for centuries. Hitler wrote to him in 1932, it was a personal letter trying to persuade him to allow a Jewish settlement within Palestine. The letter was delivered by Germany's Ambassador to the GM one week later. The GM was persuaded and so began the movement of 63,788 jews to Palestine between 1933 to 1939.
Interest free capital loans backed by the 3rd Reich were given to them so as to build houses, every machine used was German Magirus Deutz given for free use. You can today drive down to the coast and drive on to the very jetty that all this 'help' to build a jewish community landed upon, it was built by Hochtief, the same company that built Hitler's bunkers.
Check mate.
Check mate indeed, how childish. Please provide quotes and references for your assertions, as I will endeavor to do below.Interest free capital loans backed by the 3rd Reich were given to them so as to build houses, every machine used was German Magirus Deutz given for free use. You can today drive down to the coast and drive on to the very jetty that all this 'help' to build a jewish community landed upon, it was built by Hochtief, the same company that built Hitler's bunkers.
Check mate.
The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
I hope that clarifies that point.
As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
Mousem40 said:
Check mate indeed, how childish. Please provide quotes and references for your assertions, as I will endeavor to do below.
The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
I hope that clarifies that point.
As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
The bit about the kids. The Nazis were interested initially in the deal to transport them. Then they said no deal. And the kids went off to their deaths.The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
I hope that clarifies that point.
As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
Why the f
k didn't we offer to bring them here instead? Crazy.Mousem40 said:
Check mate indeed, how childish. Please provide quotes and references for your assertions, as I will endeavor to do below.
The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
I hope that clarifies that point.
As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
Oh dear, RottenIcons. Still think Hitler was a Zionist?The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
I hope that clarifies that point.
As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
Joey Ramone said:
Oh dear, RottenIcons. Still think Hitler was a Zionist?
I stated earlier that Hitler was NOT a Zionist, read my previous posts, what I said was that Zionists and Hitler shared the same goal, the means to that goal was a home land in the Holy Lands. They were hand-maidens, they joined hands to achieve a common goal.It is also what KL was saying in his squirmy communist double-speak.
Misinterpreting or tangenting my words and then arguing against that is false argument and only impoverishes the debate.
Mousem40 said:
RottenIcons said:
Let's look at this head-on. The leader in the area was the Grand Mufti, he was the only person who give safe passage to any person passing through the land his people for centuries. Hitler wrote to him in 1932, it was a personal letter trying to persuade him to allow a Jewish settlement within Palestine. The letter was delivered by Germany's Ambassador to the GM one week later. The GM was persuaded and so began the movement of 63,788 jews to Palestine between 1933 to 1939.
Interest free capital loans backed by the 3rd Reich were given to them so as to build houses, every machine used was German Magirus Deutz given for free use. You can today drive down to the coast and drive on to the very jetty that all this 'help' to build a jewish community landed upon, it was built by Hochtief, the same company that built Hitler's bunkers.
Check mate.
1 Check mate indeed, how childish. Please provide quotes and references for your assertions, as I will endeavor to do below.Interest free capital loans backed by the 3rd Reich were given to them so as to build houses, every machine used was German Magirus Deutz given for free use. You can today drive down to the coast and drive on to the very jetty that all this 'help' to build a jewish community landed upon, it was built by Hochtief, the same company that built Hitler's bunkers.
Check mate.
2 The Grand Mufti was no friend of Zionism, he certainly did not grant safe passage to any Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti's long held desire was for Palestinian/Arab independence and the cessation of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
3 In Icon of Evil (Dalin and Rothman) in P.57/58 he quotes the Grand Mufti as saying 'Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany...Germany battles world Jewry, Islam’s principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims...My enemy’s enemy is my friend...'
4 Furthermore, the Mufti further contributed to the Holocaust by hindering negotiations that would have otherwise spared Jews from the concentrations camps and enabled their immigration.
5 For example, in early 1946, the American journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer, documented a proposal made in spring 1943 by the British government, offering the release of 20,000 German prisoners of war in exchange for allowing 4000 Jewish refugee children from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, escorted by 500 adults to enter Palestine. Despite Himmler and Eichmann’s initial interest in the offer, they withdrew from negotiations after Husseini protested against the plan in a letter delivered to Ribbentrop on May 13, 1943:
6 'The Arabs see in this emigration a great danger to their lives and existence. The Arab peoples put themselves at the disposal of the Axis without any hesitation...I request your Excellency to act with all possible effort to avoid this plan of the international Jewry and Anglo- Americans without delay' (Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 157)
7 Consequently these 4000 children were sent to the death camps in Poland. The success of his efforts led to him to also approach the satellite governments advising them to ban any Jewish emigration to Palestine. In a letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister dated June 28, 1944, the Mufti went as far as to suggest:
8 'If there are reasons which make their [the Jews] removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries...as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage'.(Schechtman, Mufti and the Fuehrer, p. 155)
9 I hope that clarifies that point.
10 As to your postulate that the Nazi's generously provided interest free capital loans for the removal of the Jews from Germany to Palestine, is disingenuous.
10 The Haavara Agreement, between the Ministry of Economy of the Reich and the Jewish Agency, allowed German Jews to move to Palestine, forcing them to hand over their assets to a special trust company in Germany, which would then be transported to Palestine as German exported goods.(Melka, ‘Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question’, Middle Eastern Studies, 5/3 (1969), p. 221)
As for German Zionism:-
11 The Grand Mufti's long awaited meeting with Hitler took place on November 28 1941 at the Reich Chancellery in Berlin. The Fuhrer informed the Mufti that Germany intended to break through the Caucasus region and move into the Middle East assuring him that the sole goal would be the destruction of the Jews. (Breitman and Goda, Hitler’s Shadow, p. 19)
11 He went on to assert that: ‘Germany stood for uncompromising war against Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine’.(W. Lacquer and B. Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (New York, 1984), p. 881)
11 Howard Sachar argues, the meeting led to an understanding whereby Hitler‘s forces would invade Palestine purely in order to destroy Palestinian Jewry (Archive Front Page Mag - http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?A...
1 I thought it a rather nifty 'play on words' asking the reader to check and in knowing that in doing so the reader would find that indeed all the details checked out putting an end to that particular debate.
2 He certainly turned out that way but we are talking about 1932/1933, when he was very accommodating.
3 Indeed he did, but from memory that is a quote from 1940. By then things were totally different.
4 Absolutely he did, by 1941 the Mufti hated the jews more than Hitler, as that hatred was 3000yrs in the making.
5 You are jumping 13 years ahead with an intervening war, that is not the nub of this issue regarding the shared Zionist and 3rd Reich goal of a home land in the Holy Land.
6 Another wartime/post-war quote I believe. Not the issue here. Our minds are turned to 1932/1933, the period of this striving for the same goal.
7 See above, The issue is that halcyon period when a 2-state Middle-East at least seemed possible.
8 See 6&7 above, when the shared goal was destroyed then obviously everything changed.
9 No, you have sought to move on to later years when indeed the agreement had broken down, you have not made a single valid point that is contemporaneous to the Instigation and first tentative steps of the Haavara Agreement, I find that disingenuous. As a result much of what you have written is moot and (in this discussion) worthless.
10 & 10 The Haavara Agreement was administered by jews, the trust company was jewish run and owned.
11, 11 & 11 Again you are writing about a time when the Agreement had broken down. That is not the matter in hand. No-one disputes that when it all fell apart it went pear-shaped. The issue is, "Did the 3Rd Reich have a peaceful First Solution where it worked hand-in-glove with Zionists to bring about home land in the Holy lands?" The answer to that is a catagoric yes.
RottenIcons said:
11, 11 & 11 Again you are writing about a time when the Agreement had broken down. That is not the matter in hand. No-one disputes that when it all fell apart it went pear-shaped. The issue is, "Did the 3Rd Reich have a peaceful First Solution where it worked hand-in-glove with Zionists to bring about home land in the Holy lands?" The answer to that is a catagoric yes.
Except that's simply not true. Rather than take your word for it (and you seem rather desperate to rewrite history and cast Hitler and the Third Reich in a benign light), I'll take Niall Ferguson's word instead. He after all is a history professor at Harvard so I'm going to guess his opinion is more expert than yours."Livingstone’s claim that this was Hitler’s preferred option is simply wrong. As early as 1919 Hitler stated that he saw the Jews as “the racial tuberculosis of peoples”. In a speech he gave in April 1920 he called for them “to be exterminated”. In Mein Kampf he wrote: “If at the beginning of the [First World] war and during the war 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas . . . the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.”
Germans who voted National Socialist in 1932 and 1933 were therefore not voting for a Zionist resettlement programme. At a torchlit parade on February 6, 1933, in Hamburg 20,000 brownshirts chanted: “Death to the Jews,” and — according to one eyewitness — “sang of the blood of the Jews which would squirt from their knives”.
The Victor's stories of the Second World War are not all true. Every war is full of lies, every victor is full of even more lies as to how he did it.
In school we are lead to believe that Hitler came to power and ensnared every jew in the land, we had to mount 'kinder transport' at huge risk to get a few children out from under his heavy hand and there is some truth in that, there was a mechanism to get jews out of Germany, it was called the Haavara Agreement and it was against the law of the land to do it any other way. So it was risky for those that organised the kinder transports just as is breaking any law in a foreign country is.
But to find out that the 3rd Reich worked with Zionists and helped 63,788 men, women and children leave Germany not as refugees but as self-sustaining emigrees adding to the richness of the country they entered completely ruins the narrative we've been taught.
Of those 60k+ people it must be fair to say that at least 10,000 of them would be young, which is many times more than the entire 'kinder transport' achieved, such information, should it become common currency would ruin the simple narrative and could spoil the Iconic ideas of the past. Some may turn out to be rotten icons.
In school we are lead to believe that Hitler came to power and ensnared every jew in the land, we had to mount 'kinder transport' at huge risk to get a few children out from under his heavy hand and there is some truth in that, there was a mechanism to get jews out of Germany, it was called the Haavara Agreement and it was against the law of the land to do it any other way. So it was risky for those that organised the kinder transports just as is breaking any law in a foreign country is.
But to find out that the 3rd Reich worked with Zionists and helped 63,788 men, women and children leave Germany not as refugees but as self-sustaining emigrees adding to the richness of the country they entered completely ruins the narrative we've been taught.
Of those 60k+ people it must be fair to say that at least 10,000 of them would be young, which is many times more than the entire 'kinder transport' achieved, such information, should it become common currency would ruin the simple narrative and could spoil the Iconic ideas of the past. Some may turn out to be rotten icons.
Smollet said:
Anyone see Diane Abbott on the Andrew Marr programme this morning? She really doesn't do their cause any good whatsoever.
Oh her, Corbyn's fling a few years ago. She revealed her racism a while ago, against the English I think it was and of course nothing was done about it. easytiger123 said:
RottenIcons said:
11, 11 & 11 Again you are writing about a time when the Agreement had broken down. That is not the matter in hand. No-one disputes that when it all fell apart it went pear-shaped. The issue is, "Did the 3Rd Reich have a peaceful First Solution where it worked hand-in-glove with Zionists to bring about home land in the Holy lands?" The answer to that is a catagoric yes.
1 Except that's simply not true. Rather than take your word for it (and you seem rather desperate to rewrite history and cast Hitler and the Third Reich in a benign light), I'll take Niall Ferguson's word instead. He after all is a history professor at Harvard so I'm going to guess his opinion is more expert than yours.2 "Livingstone’s claim that this was Hitler’s preferred option is simply wrong. As early as 1919 Hitler stated that he saw the Jews as “the racial tuberculosis of peoples”. In a speech he gave in April 1920 he called for them “to be exterminated”. In Mein Kampf he wrote: “If at the beginning of the [First World] war and during the war 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas . . . the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.”
3 Germans who voted National Socialist in 1932 and 1933 were therefore not voting for a Zionist resettlement programme. At a torchlit parade on February 6, 1933, in Hamburg 20,000 brownshirts chanted: “Death to the Jews,” and — according to one eyewitness — “sang of the blood of the Jews which would squirt from their knives”.
2 Hitler thought that the German state was betrayed by Jews who sought to bring the USA into WW1. but this was in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Whether he was right or right about that he has every right to be a bit peeved if he believes that.
3 Voters regularly would re-instate hanging in this Country, but it hasn't happened. What they voted for was Hitler and his Dictatorship, he tried one way, it failed, he then went on an increasingly darker course. But he started in a good faith with a kindly and generous idea.
RottenIcons said:
1 I do not and will not re-write history. The 3 x 11s were all events after the breakdown, so what I wrote was and is 100% correct. Post your champions words and the period he is referring to and you will find he too is writing about the period after the Haavara Agreement broke down.
2 Hitler thought that the German state was betrayed by Jews who sought to bring the USA into WW1. but this was in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Whether he was right or right about that he has every right to be a bit peeved if he believes that.
3 Voters regularly would re-instate hanging in this Country, but it hasn't happened. What they voted for was Hitler and his Dictatorship, he tried one way, it failed, he then went on an increasingly darker course. But he started in a good faith with a kindly and generous idea.
The kindly and generous idea of exterminating them all (Hitler's own words from April 1920). Christ you do write some utter nonsense. It's just a shame that my "champion" is a Harvard professor and acclaimed historian and you...well, are not.2 Hitler thought that the German state was betrayed by Jews who sought to bring the USA into WW1. but this was in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Whether he was right or right about that he has every right to be a bit peeved if he believes that.
3 Voters regularly would re-instate hanging in this Country, but it hasn't happened. What they voted for was Hitler and his Dictatorship, he tried one way, it failed, he then went on an increasingly darker course. But he started in a good faith with a kindly and generous idea.
easytiger123 said:
RottenIcons said:
1 I do not and will not re-write history. The 3 x 11s were all events after the breakdown, so what I wrote was and is 100% correct. Post your champions words and the period he is referring to and you will find he too is writing about the period after the Haavara Agreement broke down.
2 Hitler thought that the German state was betrayed by Jews who sought to bring the USA into WW1. but this was in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Whether he was right or right about that he has every right to be a bit peeved if he believes that.
3 Voters regularly would re-instate hanging in this Country, but it hasn't happened. What they voted for was Hitler and his Dictatorship, he tried one way, it failed, he then went on an increasingly darker course. But he started in a good faith with a kindly and generous idea.
The kindly and generous idea of exterminating them all (Hitler's own words from April 1920). Christ you do write some utter nonsense. It's just a shame that my "champion" is a Harvard professor and acclaimed historian and you...well, are not.2 Hitler thought that the German state was betrayed by Jews who sought to bring the USA into WW1. but this was in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Whether he was right or right about that he has every right to be a bit peeved if he believes that.
3 Voters regularly would re-instate hanging in this Country, but it hasn't happened. What they voted for was Hitler and his Dictatorship, he tried one way, it failed, he then went on an increasingly darker course. But he started in a good faith with a kindly and generous idea.
His actions in 1932 in even considering, let alone making a huge effort to install and allow the Haavara Agreement means that I am right and that he did 'grow up' a bit and try the kinder and generous approach.
Enough of the diversions.
Missed it but it seems that the hysterical John Mann has been told to stop making a spectacle of himself and has been sanctioned. He should in my opinion have been be sectioned following his mental breakdown last week.
I note that the inquiry in Ken is likely to be dropped on Friday (after the elections) to avoid more publicity. Thursdays results are going to really interesting to say the least!
Missed it but it seems that the hysterical John Mann has been told to stop making a spectacle of himself and has been sanctioned. He should in my opinion have been be sectioned following his mental breakdown last week.
I note that the inquiry in Ken is likely to be dropped on Friday (after the elections) to avoid more publicity. Thursdays results are going to really interesting to say the least!
RottenIcons said:
Yes, 1920 having served in the trenches and probably suffering what we'd call these days PTSD and angry at the defeat, do you think he's going to say or write anything that he might recant upon later in life? I think that is entirely possible.
His actions in 1932 in even considering, let alone making a huge effort to install and allow the Haavara Agreement means that I am right and that he did 'grow up' a bit and try the kinder and generous approach.
So, anything Hitler said that doesn't suit your ludicrous hypothesis that he was a lovely guy trying to help the Jewish people whom he loved dearly, you just write-off because he was in prison when he wrote it or suffering (according again to your non-expert opinion) from PTSD when he said it. What complete and utter garbage. His actions in 1932 in even considering, let alone making a huge effort to install and allow the Haavara Agreement means that I am right and that he did 'grow up' a bit and try the kinder and generous approach.
RottenIcons said:
Enough of the diversions.
Missed it but it seems that the hysterical John Mann has been told to stop making a spectacle of himself and has been sanctioned. He should in my opinion have been be sectioned following his mental breakdown last week.
I note that the inquiry in Ken is likely to be dropped on Friday (after the elections) to avoid more publicity. Thursdays results are going to really interesting to say the least!
You remind me of people who think that being clever is achieved through use of lots of words. Missed it but it seems that the hysterical John Mann has been told to stop making a spectacle of himself and has been sanctioned. He should in my opinion have been be sectioned following his mental breakdown last week.
I note that the inquiry in Ken is likely to be dropped on Friday (after the elections) to avoid more publicity. Thursdays results are going to really interesting to say the least!
Having already described Hitler as "kindly" we now have insulting and ill educated b
ks about people being sectioned and mental illness.Unless I am mistaken you referred to a blog - what is this blog and what do you write about on it? Do you have any qualifications to base your views on?
RottenIcons said:
Yes, 1920 having served in the trenches and probably suffering what we'd call these days PTSD and angry at the defeat, do you think he's going to say or write anything that he might recant upon later in life? I think that is entirely possible.
His actions in 1932 in even considering, let alone making a huge effort to install and allow the Haavara Agreement means that I am right and that he did 'grow up' a bit and try the kinder and generous approach.
Are you being serious or just typing this sort of thing as in theory there is no comback on the Internet whereas you'd not in a year of Sunday's ever say it in public. Are you trolling? Putting in what only Holocaust deniers would view as abhorrent?His actions in 1932 in even considering, let alone making a huge effort to install and allow the Haavara Agreement means that I am right and that he did 'grow up' a bit and try the kinder and generous approach.
What's your thoughts on Saville? He raised a lot of £ for charity so does that mean it outweighed his lifetimes worth of vile child abuse?
How about the Wests? Hey he had a sexual need didn't he so it's all ok then.
I
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