Red Ken suspended

[FredClogs]

boxxob said:

FredClogs said:

I don't know to what distant or near past you are referring but I grew up there throughout the 80s and 90s it was always, generally, a st hole. The bits that were nice then are still nice now, the bits that were st then are still st now... And even if there had been much of a change (which there hasn't) you'd be hard pressed to lay the entirety of the blame at the door of Labour voters, anti Semites or Muslims.

I am confident that many would disagree with you, and many with the equivalent credentials to speak from personal experience. I think it would be difficult to blame the groups you outline, certainly not the "entirety". However, labour voters and their representatives are, by a conservative measure, probably 92% to blame.

Of course, because man people look back on their life and times with rose tinted spectacles and wonder where it all went wrong and look for someone to blame... About 83% I'd say... Wouldn't you?

The reality is there never was any good old days and if there was it wasn't the Northern Mill towns in the 80s and 90s - save for a brief period when Rovers won the premier league in 1995. Quite what the relevance to that and anti semitism in the Labour party is, I don't know.

[marcosgt]

boxxob said:

MarshPhantom said:

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

...that would be the leader who wanted to make 'islamophobia' an aggravated crime?

Does that mean he WASN'T Jewish???

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate.

Ah, now that makes sense...

M.

Edited by marcosgt on Tuesday 3rd May 13:34

[Mr_B]

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

[MarshPhantom]

boxxob said:

MarshPhantom said:

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

...that would be the leader who wanted to make 'islamophobia' an aggravated crime?

Does that mean he isn't Jewish or not a proper Jew?

This really is the thread that keeps on giving.

[AstonZagato]

In related news, Cambridge University Students Union yesterday initiated a referendum to disaffiliate from the National Union of Students. This is following the election of the new NUS National President, Malia Bouattia, who has faced allegations of anti-Semitism (which she has denied).

Cambridge are not alone. Students’ unions from across the UK have been launching similar disaffiliation campaigns and referendums.

[jonby]

marcosgt said:

boxxob said:

MarshPhantom said:

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

...that would be the leader who wanted to make 'islamophobia' an aggravated crime?

Does that mean he WASN'T Jewish???

Depends on your definition of 'jewish' - it's a very difficult question to answer

A synagogue would accept his proof of being jewish (jewish mother) if he wanted to join, but he is a declared atheist

He is not seen as a 'friend' of the jewish community by most in this country and it was Milband's leadership that started the move away from the Labour party by many jews in this country, which has continued with Corbyn's leadership

Miliband describes himself as a 'jewish atheist'. Cameron incidentally has described himself as a zionist. Miliband did too once, but that got him into problems which he got out of by saying he wasn't and he distanced himself from the comment. Miliband seems to choose when to describe himself as jewish depending on who asks the question and who is listening - the worse of all worlds in my opinion, as it just shows a lack of sincerity

The question of how/whether you define anyone as jewish is a whole other debate (particularly within the jewish community) that will never reach a conclusion

[Oakey]

I saw something saying 50 had now been suspended!

[MarshPhantom]

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

[Mr_B]

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

You are more than a bit dishonest in this debate, aren't you ? I've made it quite clear that some people in Labour don't know the difference between criticism a government and blind hatred of a group of people across the world called Jews.
You only have to read their posts to see they are the ones using the terms Jews when at best they mean the pro government people of Israel.
Labour has a problem where it has attracted a number of people who align with Corbyn and Co on a tough anti Israel stance, but who slip over the line into hate.

It's probably best you don't respond. When you do its very dishonest, and that's even if you bother to. Again, you made false claims and played the victim yourself earlier and when challenged said nothing or backed up your claim Naz Shah was just making a joke of it.
I think I'll sit back and let you make a double standards fool of yourself on the forum.

[MarshPhantom]

boxxob said:

MarshPhantom said:

boxxob said:

MarshPhantom said:

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

...that would be the leader who wanted to make 'islamophobia' an aggravated crime?

Does that mean he isn't Jewish or not a proper Jew?

This really is the thread that keeps on giving.

You missed the point

Apologies. Point taken.

[FredClogs]

I'm pretty sure another couple of pages and we'll have cracked the whole issue lads... Come one let's put our heads together, if the whole issue of religious tolerance, racial integration and habitual human societal dynamics can't be (at long last) solved on this here car forum then where can it be solved...?

So simply put, is criticism of Israel in either it's actions or existence necessarily Anti-Semitic? My grandma was of Eastern European Jewish stock (born in London) and she was never a zionist or a great fan of Israel, does that make her a Muslim?

Edited by FredClogs on Tuesday 3rd May 15:13

[Mr_B]

FredClogs said:

So simply put, is criticism of Israel in either it's actions or existence necessarily Anti-Semitic?

No, but if you start talking about your man Hitler and transporting a worldwide group of people called Jews to be settled one country and so on, people may just wonder where you are coming from and if you are not a little bit thick and possibly racist.
You are deliberately framing it as an attack on solely criticism of Israel being met with a faux cry of antisemitism.

[jonby]

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

You are more than a bit dishonest in this debate, aren't you ? I've made it quite clear that some people in Labour don't know the difference between criticism a government and blind hatred of a group of people across the world called Jews.
You only have to read their posts to see they are the ones using the terms Jews when at best they mean the pro government people of Israel.
Labour has a problem where it has attracted a number of people who align with Corbyn and Co on a tough anti Israel stance, but who slip over the line into hate.

It's probably best you don't respond. When you do its very dishonest, and that's even if you bother to. Again, you made false claims and played the victim yourself earlier and when challenged said nothing or backed up your claim Naz Shah was just making a joke of it.
I think I'll sit back and let you make a double standards fool of yourself on the forum.

To make it even more difficult, do you not think there are arguably three, not two positions to differentiate between ?

1) There is anti semitism, which with the exception of Rotten Icons, is accepted as being encouraging hatred/discrimination against jews as an entire race/religion
2) There are negative comments on Israel's policies towards palestinians and other non-jewish arabs, perfectly acceptable in most contexts
3) Then there is zionism. I don't quite see zionism as being the same as supporting current Israeli policies. Zionism is about the support of the establishment of a jewish state as a homeland for jews in what we now know as Israel

Now there are plenty of people who object to the way Israel is currently going about maintaining itself as a state in the Middle East, but many of them don't seem to object to Israel's right to exist. Those that do object are indeed anti zionist. But there are many, both jewish & non-jewish, who believe in the basic fundamentals of zionism but not some of the current policies

That all makes a very complicated situation even more complicated

The word 'hate' was brought up and I think it's really important. If rhetoric is there to encourage, spread & cement hatred of jews, it doesn't really matter what the language is or for that matter, what the historical accuracy is - if it's hate and encouragement of hate, it's both racist and more importantly than the label, wrong & inappropriate, particularly for a politician. Everything else really is a smokescreen

What's also concerning is the incredible double standards. Why, when they know the impact it has on jews in this country to keep referring to zionism, do we so rarely hear criticism of the many, many policies of the Palestinians which go so deeply against the basic fundamental tenets of the left ?

There are of course plenty including plenty on the left who are not anti semitic, nor even anti zionist, but simply don't like the way Israel is behaving. Then there are those who use all that as a cloak for their real agenda.

[Esseesse]

SWoll said:

Halb said:

desolate said:

As this issue is really about politics not history, surely it doesn't really matter if Ken was factually correct or not?

It was piss poor politics.

Or are we know not arguing about Ken?

People are using nasty slurs like anti-semite and shutting down discussion of history and politics and people are getting suspended over this. Certain types are jumping on the bandwaggon and either wilfully or through ignorance chanting the same mantra. SOme posters on here want to throw away the facts of what is being debated to simply join the illogical chant.
I thought the whole point that it does matter if Ken is correct, because then he cannot be accused of what he is accused of. This goes beyond Switfian satire. It doesn't matter that Ken told the truth because he's a liar because he is?

Totally agree Halb. He's been branded a racist, anti-Semite and suspended from the LP after making a comment that we are now discussing the factual validity of. Quite where some of the other posters on the thread are trying to take the discussion is beyond me and goes to prove how you cannot have an adult discussion on topics such as this without madness descending on the thread.

++ This is how it seems like to me (although admittedly I haven't followed this closely, but I did catch some DP then other day - Clegg was a disgrace). Shows how screwed we are as a society when telling the truth is radical.

[FredClogs]

So if you showed support for the idea of the creation of a homeland for Jews, but instead of the "Holy Land" in Montana or Washington State (for example) does that make you a Zionist or an anti Semite, or just a plain idiot?

[marcosgt]

jonby said:

Depends on your definition of 'jewish' - it's a very difficult question to answer

A synagogue would accept his proof of being jewish (jewish mother) if he wanted to join, but he is a declared atheist

He is not seen as a 'friend' of the jewish community by most in this country and it was Milband's leadership that started the move away from the Labour party by many jews in this country, which has continued with Corbyn's leadership

Miliband describes himself as a 'jewish atheist'. Cameron incidentally has described himself as a zionist. Miliband did too once, but that got him into problems which he got out of by saying he wasn't and he distanced himself from the comment. Miliband seems to choose when to describe himself as jewish depending on who asks the question and who is listening - the worse of all worlds in my opinion, as it just shows a lack of sincerity

The question of how/whether you define anyone as jewish is a whole other debate (particularly within the jewish community) that will never reach a conclusion

OK, so he IS Jewish. I'm glad we cleared that up, rather than muddying the water with spurious definitions of what is and isn't Jewish in people's opinions...

I'm really unclear, though, why people who are distressed (rightly) about anti-Semitic (or anti-Israeli, less rightly) remarks seem to be happy to tar every Labour party member and/or supporter as anti-Semitic. Seems a little inconsistent in terms of thinking...

Anti-Semitism is wrong, but lots of people in parties, left and right, hold these views, same as lots are racist, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic and every other 'ist' and 'phobic' going. They represent a cross section of society, people are imperfect.

Criticism of the Israeli government is perfectly acceptable, if not a duty - No government is above judgement, but this is exactly what the Israeli ones (and their supporters) aim for, bleating about "Anti-Semitism" every time someone complains about them shooting children...

Jewish people are not all responsible for Israel's behaviour and anyone (including Ken Livingstone, who's "Hitler was a Zionist" comment was clearly intended to upset) who implies that is a moron, but equally Israel's recent and future behaviour as a state cannot be excused on the grounds of the suffering of others during the Holocaust...

FredClogs said:

So if you showed support for the idea of the creation of a homeland for Jews, but instead of the "Holy Land" in Montana or Washington State (for example) does that make you a Zionist or an anti Semite, or just a plain idiot?

If the West had exercised less sympathy and more clear thinking, some of the current misery in the middle east could have been avoided. Of course, it was hard in the light of the discovery of the camps.

I guess if MOST Jews wanted to go to Montana then you'd be a Zionist, but I equally guess that won't ever happen...

M

Edited by marcosgt on Tuesday 3rd May 16:34

[MarshPhantom]

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

You are more than a bit dishonest in this debate, aren't you ? I've made it quite clear that some people in Labour don't know the difference between criticism a government and blind hatred of a group of people across the world called Jews.
You only have to read their posts to see they are the ones using the terms Jews when at best they mean the pro government people of Israel.
Labour has a problem where it has attracted a number of people who align with Corbyn and Co on a tough anti Israel stance, but who slip over the line into hate.

It's probably best you don't respond. When you do its very dishonest, and that's even if you bother to. Again, you made false claims and played the victim yourself earlier and when challenged said nothing or backed up your claim Naz Shah was just making a joke of it.
I think I'll sit back and let you make a double standards fool of yourself on the forum.

Can you not back up your claim about "so many in Labour slipping into blind Jew hate"? Thought not. You're more than a little dishonest yourself.

[franki68]

'Criticism of the Israeli government is perfectly acceptable, if not a duty - No government is above judgement, but this is exactly what the Israeli ones (and their supporters) aim for, bleating about "Anti-Semitism" every time someone complains about them shooting children...'


No ,you are missing the point,to use your example the issue is those same people don't complains when the palestinians kill jewish children,,they dont complain when saudi arabia deliberately bombs civilians in Yemen .etc etc No government is above judgement,but no government should be judged at a level no other government is.
And the issue is compounded when language is used specifically to offend jews ,comparing israel to nazism ,apartheid etc..these are nonsense arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny and are used to only for the purpose of offending jews.
Using old nazi anti semitic myths like 'the jews control the banks,the jews control the media....substitute the word jew for zionist and I have seen those phrases at least a hundred times the last 2 days ,this is anti semitism.

why use the word zionist ? zionism has many different forms surely israeli or israel supporting is more accurate ,the way it is used by the left wing is no different from for example saying all muslims are terrorists ,its just simply grouping a load of different strands into one name ,a name which can be used almost legitimately to mean JEW .
The chairperson of oxford UNi labour party resigned due to his correct perception that zio had become another word for Jew and they objected to the huge amount of what they perceived as anti semitism taking place within that organization.This person was not jewish.

[jonby]

marcosgt said:

jonby said:

Depends on your definition of 'jewish' - it's a very difficult question to answer

A synagogue would accept his proof of being jewish (jewish mother) if he wanted to join, but he is a declared atheist

He is not seen as a 'friend' of the jewish community by most in this country and it was Milband's leadership that started the move away from the Labour party by many jews in this country, which has continued with Corbyn's leadership

Miliband describes himself as a 'jewish atheist'. Cameron incidentally has described himself as a zionist. Miliband did too once, but that got him into problems which he got out of by saying he wasn't and he distanced himself from the comment. Miliband seems to choose when to describe himself as jewish depending on who asks the question and who is listening - the worse of all worlds in my opinion, as it just shows a lack of sincerity

The question of how/whether you define anyone as jewish is a whole other debate (particularly within the jewish community) that will never reach a conclusion

OK, so he IS Jewish. I'm glad we cleared that up, rather than muddying the water with spurious definitions of what is and isn't Jewish in people's opinions...

If that's how you wish to interpret my answer, then fine

Gets back to the whole 'is judaism a race or a religion' argument.

If it's a religion, then a declared athiest is patently not jewish. Presumably you accept that someone who declares themselves an athiest but has christian parents is not Christian ? Same goes for Islam and indeed most religions

If judaism is a race, then it's a different matter - you can't 'deny' your race

I'm still unsure where I stand on the whole question of whether judaism, in practical terms based on the way it 'works' today, is more a religion or a race. That's because common sense says how can it not be a religion but in terms of the very personal question of how I feel about my judaism and interact with others, it's more cultural and race related than religious

[FredClogs]

marcosgt said:

If the West had exercised less sympathy and more clear thinking, some of the current misery in the middle east could have been avoided. Of course, it was hard in the light of the discovery of the camps.

I guess if MOST Jews wanted to go to Montana then you'd be a Zionist, but I equally guess that won't ever happen...

M

Edited by marcosgt on Tuesday 3rd May 16:34

The reality is, of course, that nobody wants to live in Montana evidently as nobody does, save a few outdoors and the Unabobmer types.

Secondly the very word "Zion" refers to the patch of land in Jerusalem, it's all in the Bible and stuff, King David etc... Leonard Cohen explains it all quite well... So you can't even think about decoupling the faith, the land and the people, or even start to offer suggestions.... Any suggestion, no matter how reasoned or logical about how you could offer a peace in the Middle East is anti semitic... It's an intractable problem that won't be solved by not talking about it and silencing comment, no matter how clumsily they're made. In fact is unsolvable and will only end in either genocide or an extreme, hitherto unheard of, revelation - maybe God himself could be persuaded to put in an appearance?

But let's be clear, no one in the labour party is seriously offering the solution of transporting a nation from it's homeland and relocating it in Montana, they're silly comments made off the cuff on social media by idiots and Ken Livingstone who quite frankly is well past his use by date.