Red Ken suspended
Discussion
oop north said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36165298
Well this news story suggests that Livingstone was not factually accurate...
And even then the article reads as if things were not exactly clear either. I'm learning new things reading that article too. If they're right.Well this news story suggests that Livingstone was not factually accurate...
Does anyone actually have 'the facts'... I doubt it.
It looks like the British stopping Jews moving to Palestine, after Mein Kampf had been written (writing on the wall!) leaves the British government somewhat to blame for what occured.
No you can't move there, it's ours. Stay in Germany with the nutter who wants to kill you (look, it says so in his book!) we won't even go to war with to stop until it's too late.
I also remember reading that some Jersey residents who were Jewish were sent back to Germany and were then killed by the Nazis.
It seems other countries did their fair share of shafting the Jews during World War 2 and leaving them at the mercy of a known nutter!
saaby93 said:
Steady That's as read but who should be ashamed?
Are you mixing up antisemitism (or is it semitism) with having a pop at Israel?
No I'm not mixing anything up.Are you mixing up antisemitism (or is it semitism) with having a pop at Israel?
I have repeatedly said in previous posts that critisicm of the actions of an Israeli Government is fair game.
However there is nowadays a very fine line to be tread.
Why ?
because there is and probably always will be those that are only to happy to use legitmate debate to disguise their prejudice.
Surely you understand there are many people who use the opportunity to conflate the Palestine / Israel problem with their hatred of Jews in general.
For example I do not conflate the horrors of Isis with any,let alone all,of my Muslim friends and neighbours ,many however do.
You only have to read some of the posts on PH to realise this.
Many of your fathers and my own dad fought and lost their lives in WW11 to defeat the facists.
I am humbled by their sacrifices and yet still we have not learnt the lessons of that history.
I saw the historian on the news give his views. The facts about what happened, who moved, cannot be quibbled, it happened. But he seemed to have been asked to state his view to make sure he said Ken was wrong. Which seemed more important about confirming the fact that the transfer occurred.
SWoll said:
franki68 said:
The hitler comment was stupid and threw petrol on the fire he had created by supporting a woman who had made anti Semitic remarks.
Have you actually read the transcripts of what was said by both parties or just made a decision based on headlines?RottenIcons said:
The first one was the idea of giving the jews in Germany their own homeland. He instigated a repatriation program that was SUPPORTED by jews, it was run by jews, it was paid for by the 3rd Reich.
Yes, but was it supported in a positive or negative way i.e. did they support it to save themselves from an increasingly hostile environment in Germany even at the expense of their freedom and property? To me that makes ALOT of difference to the overall context.avinalarf said:
No I'm not mixing anything up.
I have repeatedly said in previous posts that critisicm of the actions of an Israeli Government is fair game.
However there is nowadays a very fine line to be tread.
Why ?
because there is and probably always will be those that are only to happy to use legitmate debate to disguise their prejudice.
Surely you understand there are many people who use the opportunity to conflate the Palestine / Israel problem with their hatred of Jews in general.
Yes but it's getting tricky working out which group of people are doing the conflatingI have repeatedly said in previous posts that critisicm of the actions of an Israeli Government is fair game.
However there is nowadays a very fine line to be tread.
Why ?
because there is and probably always will be those that are only to happy to use legitmate debate to disguise their prejudice.
Surely you understand there are many people who use the opportunity to conflate the Palestine / Israel problem with their hatred of Jews in general.
With regard to the 'non-existence of Israel' in 1932 that too has to be addressed.
Much is made of Hitlers admiration of Muslims and the Grand Mufti in particular, what is not so well known is as to why such a strange alliance happened. it happened because the Mufti was persuaded by the 3rd Reich to give land to the Jews from Germany. The Grand Mufti offered land and he even sort of agreed to accept the offer from the American arm of the Rothschild family to buy a huge chunk of Palestinian land, made in 1895 by the then head of the Rothschild family in the USA.
Sadly the image and impression conveyed by telling the truth of historical fact does not fit with the devilish imagery built up over the decades, which is natural for some but overall rather shameful.
Much is made of Hitlers admiration of Muslims and the Grand Mufti in particular, what is not so well known is as to why such a strange alliance happened. it happened because the Mufti was persuaded by the 3rd Reich to give land to the Jews from Germany. The Grand Mufti offered land and he even sort of agreed to accept the offer from the American arm of the Rothschild family to buy a huge chunk of Palestinian land, made in 1895 by the then head of the Rothschild family in the USA.
Sadly the image and impression conveyed by telling the truth of historical fact does not fit with the devilish imagery built up over the decades, which is natural for some but overall rather shameful.
fido said:
RottenIcons said:
The first one was the idea of giving the jews in Germany their own homeland. He instigated a repatriation program that was SUPPORTED by jews, it was run by jews, it was paid for by the 3rd Reich.
Yes, but was it supported in a positive or negative way i.e. did they support it to save themselves from an increasingly hostile environment in Germany even at the expense of their freedom and property? To me that makes ALOT of difference to the overall context.
Joey Ramone said:
Yale Professor, acknowledged authority on the subject of the Holocaust
Random blokes on PH
Who to believe...
Difficult one, this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_AgreementRandom blokes on PH
Who to believe...
Difficult one, this.
What Ken said, happened. The Yale fella (appeal to authority) was saying that if Ken had said Hitler was a zionist, he was incorrect. Not that the NAZIs had not colluded with Jews to ship Jews to Palestine.
Ken wrapped up quite clearly what he said on the DP this afternoon.
saaby93 said:
I meant what I said
Not random blokes - people who've been in PH long enough to see when one thing might mean another
See halb's incisiveness just above your post
I am intrigued - what is the relevance of the length of time one has been "in PH"?Not random blokes - people who've been in PH long enough to see when one thing might mean another
See halb's incisiveness just above your post
And, if I am allowed a supplementary question, how long is long enough?
People are conveniently forgetting that the significant, indeed overwhelming majority of Jews exterminated by the Nazi regime were drawn from well outside Germany's borders. Those jews were always, from the very beginning of the awakening of Hitler's political ideology, marked down for eradication - no deportation for them. Not even slavery. Simply death. The notion that Hitler was happy to just give 'The Jews' a ticket to Palestine and a pat on the back before the Second World War put a stick in his spokes is absolute, ahistorical b
ks.
ks.And Livingstone knew exactly what he meant when he used the word 'Zionist'. 'Zio' is the new fashionable term of abuse by the Corbyn left for those who appear to exhibit any support for Israel. it crops up on an alarming basis. It is a label, and he was deliberately (Because he's been in politics long enough to know precisely what he is saying to the media) conflating that label with the forces of National Socialism.
Halb said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
What Ken said, happened. The Yale fella (appeal to authority) was saying that if Ken had said Hitler was a zionist, he was incorrect. Not that the NAZIs had not colluded with Jews to ship Jews to Palestine.
Ken wrapped up quite clearly what he said on the DP this afternoon.
You're doing it again. What Ken said, happened. The Yale fella (appeal to authority) was saying that if Ken had said Hitler was a zionist, he was incorrect. Not that the NAZIs had not colluded with Jews to ship Jews to Palestine.
Ken wrapped up quite clearly what he said on the DP this afternoon.
My knowledge of this episode in history is vague,forgive me,but even if a few Jews did feel that it was necessary to collude with the Nazis in order to save their fellow Jews from their inevitable fate at the hands of the facists.
So what ?
There were even a few Jews that through fear and weakness of will,or perhaps they were just evil miserable sods,were used by the Nazis to betray other Jews.
So what ?
There were no doubt a few Jews who tried to sucker up to the facists to save their own skins or for financial gain.
So what ?
Not every Jew is a decent caring human being,he's just like anyone else,some good some bad some just evil.
But don't let that stop you using a random point in history whether factual or not illustrate..........
what exactly ?
Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 28th April 23:41
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