Red Ken suspended

[AstonZagato]

Esseesse said:

SWoll said:

Halb said:

desolate said:

As this issue is really about politics not history, surely it doesn't really matter if Ken was factually correct or not?

It was piss poor politics.

Or are we know not arguing about Ken?

People are using nasty slurs like anti-semite and shutting down discussion of history and politics and people are getting suspended over this. Certain types are jumping on the bandwaggon and either wilfully or through ignorance chanting the same mantra. SOme posters on here want to throw away the facts of what is being debated to simply join the illogical chant.
I thought the whole point that it does matter if Ken is correct, because then he cannot be accused of what he is accused of. This goes beyond Switfian satire. It doesn't matter that Ken told the truth because he's a liar because he is?

Totally agree Halb. He's been branded a racist, anti-Semite and suspended from the LP after making a comment that we are now discussing the factual validity of. Quite where some of the other posters on the thread are trying to take the discussion is beyond me and goes to prove how you cannot have an adult discussion on topics such as this without madness descending on the thread.

++ This is how it seems like to me (although admittedly I haven't followed this closely, but I did catch some DP then other day - Clegg was a disgrace). Shows how screwed we are as a society when telling the truth is radical.

But regardless of the factual reality, anything that paints Hitler in a positive position relative to the Jewish race is going to get a huge negative reaction. He made a conscious political decision to poke that particular bear. That, in and of itself, says something.

[TTwiggy]

AstonZagato said:

But regardless of the factual reality, anything that paints Hitler in a positive position relative to the Jewish race is going to get a huge negative reaction. He made a conscious political decision to poke that particular bear. That, in and of itself, says something.

To paraphrase something I saw written elsewhere: 'while what Ken said may well be factually correct, when you're already embroiled in accusations of anti-semitism, the last thing you should do is mention Hitler.'

[Joey Ramone]

The Left, and the far Left in particular (within which group I include Corbyn, McDonnell et al) have a genuine problem with Jews courtesy of their inherently oppositional stance to US foreign policy and to the dominance of a capitalist world system, dominated by financiers, that is broadly speaking the global economic system presently adhered to by the West. Jews are so fundamentally entwined within both US foreign policy, both as activists and beneficiaries, and so active within international finance (banking, law) that when one's worldview perceives such things (US/Capitalism) as inherently harmful and thus deserving of dislike bordering upon hatred, it becomes clear as to why elements of the Left are are so prone to this anti-Jewish bullst. Indeed I would go so far as to say that if one adhered to the Corbynite worldview then antisemitism is, to all intents and purposes, an unavoidable component of it.

[Vaud]

TTwiggy said:

To paraphrase something I saw written elsewhere: 'while what Ken said may well be factually correct, when you're already embroiled in accusations of anti-semitism, the last thing you should do is mention Hitler.'

Quite.

[jonby]

Joey Ramone said:

The Left, and the far Left in particular (within which group I include Corbyn, McDonnell et al) have a genuine problem with Jews courtesy of their inherently oppositional stance to US foreign policy and to the dominance of a capitalist world system, dominated by financiers, that is broadly speaking the global economic system presently adhered to by the West. Jews are so fundamentally entwined within both US foreign policy, both as activists and beneficiaries, and so active within international finance (banking, law) that when one's worldview perceives such things (US/Capitalism) as inherently harmful and thus deserving of dislike bordering upon hatred, it becomes clear as to why elements of the Left are are so prone to this anti-Jewish bullst. Indeed I would go so far as to say that if one adhered to the Corbynite worldview then antisemitism is, to all intents and purposes, an unavoidable component of it.

Do you think that is compounded by money & wealth ? Poor Palestinians downtrodden by bullying wealthy Israel, all jews in the west are rich, many muslims are poor, lots of jews these days with a private education but most muslims don't, etc. Effectively, old fashioned anti semitism, which tends to rear it's head when times are economically tough.

EDIT: To be clear, those aren't my views above - I get the feeling they are the views of some however

[anonymous-user]

FredClogs said:

stuffsome interesting stuff some heartfelt stuff stuff more stuff and look at yourself stuff

I have just taken a look at myself. Blackburn is a stehole and its been made far far worse over the last 20 years. Mark my words it will feature heavily in places to nick people with "terrorist links to sooner rather than later.

[anonymous-user]

jonby said:

Do you think that is compounded by money & wealth ? Poor Palestinians downtrodden by bullying wealthy Israel, all jews in the west are rich, many muslims are poor, lots of jews these days with a private education but most muslims don't, etc. Effectively, old fashioned anti semitism, which tends to rear it's head when times are economically tough.

EDIT: To be clear, those aren't my views above - I get the feeling they are the views of some however

It's quite unfair to make comments like that on this thread.
You get the feeling, but a feeling could be mistaken, could be paranoia.
And you mention this unnamed 'some' - would be better you established who you mean when you say this because it could look like you are throwing mud and creating a false construct to argue against.

[hidetheelephants]

TTwiggy said:

AstonZagato said:

But regardless of the factual reality, anything that paints Hitler in a positive position relative to the Jewish race is going to get a huge negative reaction. He made a conscious political decision to poke that particular bear. That, in and of itself, says something.

To paraphrase something I saw written elsewhere: 'while what Ken said may well be factually correct, when you're already embroiled in accusations of anti-semitism, the last thing you should do is mention Hitler.'

I think it was Andrew Neil, but whoever it was has it more or less right.

[Joey Ramone]

jonby said:

Do you think that is compounded by money & wealth ? Poor Palestinians downtrodden by bullying wealthy Israel, all jews in the west are rich, many muslims are poor, lots of jews these days with a private education but most muslims don't, etc. Effectively, old fashioned anti semitism, which tends to rear it's head when times are economically tough.

EDIT: To be clear, those aren't my views above - I get the feeling they are the views of some however

I think that the point was very well made by Rachael Sylvester in the Times today. The Left perceive a hierarchy of victimhood, of which an oppressed Muslim (oppressed at the hands of USRAEL (the US and Israel are essentially the same thing to these clowns) occupies the pinnacle. The middle class Jew has no chance whatsoever of achieving the status of victim according to such a mindset. They're not the only ones. Women, gay men, they'll occupy the lowest rungs of the Left's victimhood ladder, eternally thrown under the bus in favour of skint transsexual Palestinians.

[hidetheelephants]

Joey Ramone said:

jonby said:

Do you think that is compounded by money & wealth ? Poor Palestinians downtrodden by bullying wealthy Israel, all jews in the west are rich, many muslims are poor, lots of jews these days with a private education but most muslims don't, etc. Effectively, old fashioned anti semitism, which tends to rear it's head when times are economically tough.

EDIT: To be clear, those aren't my views above - I get the feeling they are the views of some however

I think that the point was very well made by Rachael Sylvester in the Times today. The Left perceive a hierarchy of victimhood, of which an oppressed Muslim (oppressed at the hands of USRAEL (the US and Israel are essentially the same thing to these clowns) occupies the pinnacle. The middle class Jew has no chance whatsoever of achieving the status of victim according to such a mindset. They're not the only ones. Women, gay men, they'll occupy the lowest rungs of the Left's victimhood ladder, eternally thrown under the bus in favour of skint transsexual Palestinians.

There's plenty of money sloshing around for the West Bank and Gaza, it just gets soaked up by arms dealers, smugglers and the crooks in Hamas, Fatah, etc. and there's fk all left over for the poor schmoes who actually live there. It's mildly ironic that Israel lifting its blockade could feasibly be the single greatest attack it could make on Hamas/Fatah's long term viability, as they wouldn't be able to maintain their stranglehold on everything.

[anonymous-user]

Knocking down homes in the West Bank - the rate increases.
I think this has been mentioned a few times in Israel/Palestine related threads on here.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/other/un-records-bi...

Can someone in the know please explain this?

[Mr_B]

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

You are more than a bit dishonest in this debate, aren't you ? I've made it quite clear that some people in Labour don't know the difference between criticism a government and blind hatred of a group of people across the world called Jews.
You only have to read their posts to see they are the ones using the terms Jews when at best they mean the pro government people of Israel.
Labour has a problem where it has attracted a number of people who align with Corbyn and Co on a tough anti Israel stance, but who slip over the line into hate.

It's probably best you don't respond. When you do its very dishonest, and that's even if you bother to. Again, you made false claims and played the victim yourself earlier and when challenged said nothing or backed up your claim Naz Shah was just making a joke of it.
I think I'll sit back and let you make a double standards fool of yourself on the forum.

Can you not back up your claim about "so many in Labour slipping into blind Jew hate"? Thought not. You're more than a little dishonest yourself.

The Labour party under Corbyn is looking like Ukip in the pre election run-up, where there was a dopey Ukip man every week being accused of racism. Like the subjects of Israel and immigration, you can perfectly well talk all you like and being highly critical of both, but as we've seen, more than a few for Labour and Ukip let the mask slip of their stated concern, to the bile they spew out.

You made the point earlier about how having had Milliband as leader meant something as he is Jewish, but failed to spot that these Labour muppets keep talking about a worldwide group of people known as Jews, when they are meant to be angry with the Israeli government or just the pro government Israelis , or at worst , just all Israelis regardless.
Was I the only one who found it amusing that while these Labour dolts were backing the idea of 'the Jews' to be transported to a new home as some solution , that you popped up and tried a diversion using Milliband being Jewish , without thinking then that he was presumably one of the Jews needing relocation too ?

Maybe you need to hope Labour has an effective IT department to hurriedly help delete all those iffy social media posts before it does hit the 50 the Telegraph are claiming. The old Labour section of the party and anyone just wishing the part would just represent them at home in the UK with jobs, schools , housing and so on, must wonder what the hell happened to their party. I actually have some sympathy for them.

[MarshPhantom]

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

MarshPhantom said:

Mr_B said:

I think the whole point of this is so many Labour people don't know where to draw the line on genuine honest criticism and slipping over the line into blind Jew hate. I'm not sure your line in 'ignore it all' is doing that much to help either.

Labour hating Jews doesn't exactly tally with their last leader being Jewish or the that 2 people have been suspended for allegations of anti semiticism.

Can you stop repaetimg this anti semitic bile ad infinitum.

Ah , your back. Thought you wouldn't reply again after your last victim card response ( standard Labour person first move? ) when you made false claims and then went very quiet when challenged on them.

I'll be blunt and say you have to be a bit 'special' to dismiss what some have said ( not the use of the word 'some' and not the all you and Fred are trying to make it out as ), on the basis the last leader was Jewish. It seems a lot of those caught are creeping out the woodwork now the current leader and his deputy take a much harder line. Labour says 12 currently suspended and not the 2 you claim too.
I'm afraid its not me spewing anti semitic bile, it's quite clearly come from within Labour, so would suggest you ask all Labour party members to hurriedly delete all those social media outbursts about Hitler and the Jews, and in the case of one , saying 'my man Hitler'.

You and Fred seem confused on what can be genuine criticism of the Israeli government actions, and Labour dolts talking about the Jews, Hitler and transporting them and relocating them out of their country into another as a solution. It's odd that both of you take such a strong line on other forms of racism in general and positively celebrate other Guido Fawkes stories on blundering Ukip muppet people without any blind defence and excuse making like you did with Naz Shah, saying it was obviously a humorous post. Double standards much ?

You're now referring to Labour as jew haters, which is worse than anti semiticm. You really should wind your neck in as you have nothing sensible to say.

You are more than a bit dishonest in this debate, aren't you ? I've made it quite clear that some people in Labour don't know the difference between criticism a government and blind hatred of a group of people across the world called Jews.
You only have to read their posts to see they are the ones using the terms Jews when at best they mean the pro government people of Israel.
Labour has a problem where it has attracted a number of people who align with Corbyn and Co on a tough anti Israel stance, but who slip over the line into hate.

It's probably best you don't respond. When you do its very dishonest, and that's even if you bother to. Again, you made false claims and played the victim yourself earlier and when challenged said nothing or backed up your claim Naz Shah was just making a joke of it.
I think I'll sit back and let you make a double standards fool of yourself on the forum.

Can you not back up your claim about "so many in Labour slipping into blind Jew hate"? Thought not. You're more than a little dishonest yourself.

The Labour party under Corbyn is looking like Ukip in the pre election run-up, where there was a dopey Ukip man every week being accused of racism. Like the subjects of Israel and immigration, you can perfectly well talk all you like and being highly critical of both, but as we've seen, more than a few for Labour and Ukip let the mask slip of their stated concern, to the bile they spew out.

You made the point earlier about how having had Milliband as leader meant something as he is Jewish, but failed to spot that these Labour muppets keep talking about a worldwide group of people known as Jews, when they are meant to be angry with the Israeli government or just the pro government Israelis , or at worst , just all Israelis regardless.
Was I the only one who found it amusing that while these Labour dolts were backing the idea of 'the Jews' to be transported to a new home as some solution , that you popped up and tried a diversion using Milliband being Jewish , without thinking then that he was presumably one of the Jews needing relocation too ?

Maybe you need to hope Labour has an effective IT department to hurriedly help delete all those iffy social media posts before it does hit the 50 the Telegraph are claiming. The old Labour section of the party and anyone just wishing the part would just represent them at home in the UK with jobs, schools , housing and so on, must wonder what the hell happened to their party. I actually have some sympathy for them.

As I said on the first page of this thread, I believe what's happening is project bin Corbyn. He will to be replaced by someone more electable. The angrier those on the right get the sooner that will happen.

[jonby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

OK, last question first - if you are inferring by 'some', I meant some on this forum, that's not at all what I meant. Apologies if it came across that way. I wasn't referring to any specific person/s

I asked a question, although patently from the way I phrased it, I think it may be the case. Not with all, but amongst certain sectors, specifically certain sectors within what I guess might be referred to as the traditional working class left

I think Joey put it quite well when he referred to the victim mentality.

So for example, the group of Scottish people I met, from a working class background, who stated that they identified with the (financially) poor Palestinians' fight against Israel/the West/international Jews as having similarities to their plight at the hands of England/London/the rich. That particular group had never knowingly met a jew before and had by their own admission, barely spent any time with any English people. They saw the issue partly as a class/money based fight and saw little difference between Israel, jews in general, America, etc - they just saw in their eyes, bullying by the rich against the poor. I was pondering how prevalent that might be.

[jonby]

MarshPhantom said:

As I said on the first page of this thread, I believe what's happening is project bin Corbyn. He will to be replaced by someone more electable. The angrier those on the right get the sooner that will happen.

I think there is no question that whether hijacked by those against Corbyn or started by those against Corbyn, they are certainly taking advantage of the situation and I don't see that as a good thing because I'm not sure that helps properly resolve two largely, separate issues

[turbobloke]

jonby said:

MarshPhantom said:

As I said on the first page of this thread, I believe what's happening is project bin Corbyn. He will to be replaced by someone more electable. The angrier those on the right get the sooner that will happen.

I think there is no question that whether hijacked by those against Corbyn or started by those against Corbyn, they are certainly taking advantage of the situation and I don't see that as a good thing because I'm not sure that helps properly resolve two largely, separate issues

And if the Labour Party machine cogs somehow managed to stick some stuffed shirt Blairite up against Corbyn...

[jonby]

turbobloke said:

jonby said:

MarshPhantom said:

As I said on the first page of this thread, I believe what's happening is project bin Corbyn. He will to be replaced by someone more electable. The angrier those on the right get the sooner that will happen.

I think there is no question that whether hijacked by those against Corbyn or started by those against Corbyn, they are certainly taking advantage of the situation and I don't see that as a good thing because I'm not sure that helps properly resolve two largely, separate issues

And if the Labour Party machine cogs somehow managed to stick some stuffed shirt Blairite up against Corbyn...

What do you think would happen ? I simply don't know enough to have a firm opinion

The impression the media seems to portray is that within the labour party i.e. those that actually vote for who their leader is, there is an overwhelming majority of support for Corbyn/the more left wing figures. How much that changes with the current row, I simply have no idea. If it doesn't change much, Corbyn will still win and of course that would cement his status

Regardless of who wins in your scenario, whether that would resolve the current dilemma Labour seem to have, of going back to their roots and alienating the centre ground or going centre ground and alienating the more traditional labour voter, I'm doubtful. I don't really see how that one is resolved unless the political landscape changes considerably including electoral reform and a change in party style for both major parties - I don't see a long term future in this country for the essentially 2 party, left or right, FPTP system

[turbobloke]

jonby said:

turbobloke said:

jonby said:

MarshPhantom said:

As I said on the first page of this thread, I believe what's happening is project bin Corbyn. He will to be replaced by someone more electable. The angrier those on the right get the sooner that will happen.

I think there is no question that whether hijacked by those against Corbyn or started by those against Corbyn, they are certainly taking advantage of the situation and I don't see that as a good thing because I'm not sure that helps properly resolve two largely, separate issues

And if the Labour Party machine cogs somehow managed to stick some stuffed shirt Blairite up against Corbyn...

What do you think would happen ? I simply don't know enough to have a firm opinion

The impression the media seems to portray is that within the labour party i.e. those that actually vote for who their leader is, there is an overwhelming majority of support for Corbyn/the more left wing figures. How much that changes with the current row, I simply have no idea. If it doesn't change much, Corbyn will still win and of course that would cement his status.

If it happened then that would be the most likely scenario as I see it but is there going to be a challenge at all?

Labour's dilemma is as advertised - the largest support base at the moment is for the unelectable wing of the Party, while the less unelectable wing is associated with the crushing disappointment and destroyed expectations of the Miliband era.

Now we have the true Nasty Party tearing itself to shreds ahead of the local elections. Blood on the carpet...and stairs, and...

[simonrockman]

Another thing that Livingstone seems to have made up is that the attack is the work of Blairites seeking to undermine Corbyn.

The furthest left, most Corbynista part of the organisation is Momentum. Founded by Jon Landsman: http://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/interviews/152867/e...

James Schneider, also Jewish, is a key figure in Momentum.

Yes, Labour has seen anti-semites come in as part of the Corbyn influx, but what Livingstone can't see is that HE is the problem.

[anonymous-user]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Well if you refer back to the link I posted a page ago, the Sky News report that the UN has recorded an increase in the rate of demolition of Palestinian homes in the West Bank, then is that not reason enough to think that the bullying is real or at least the tactics are unfair? It's not that the Israelis are wealthier (they are though, in general) it's that they have more power. The balance of power is in their favour and they are using it. Do you think the policy they are enacting is just? It appears technically legal, I believe, but that doesn't make it right does it? I don't even see that they're doing it as revenge for specific Palestinian attacks. Are they rehoming the Palestinians? Are the new homes they are building available to those who they've evicted?
Where are these people going? The Israeli interviewed did call it ethnic cleansing.
It is fair to say that there is plenty of evidence of things the Israelis are actually doing that people may see and form an opinion of the Israeli policy. It isn't just people being judgemental based on appearances, misconceptions and stereotypes.
Where is this heading?