Red Ken suspended
Discussion
Joey Ramone said:
he notion that Hitler was happy to just give 'The Jews' a ticket to Palestine and a pat on the back before the Second World War put a stick in his spokes is absolute, ahistorical b
ks.
You are incorrect.ks.https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8bjbj5CZbgMC&a...
If you read The Third Reich and the Palestine Question, you will see.
bookprecis said:
In order to ensure its racial, ideological, and strategic interests, the Hitler regime actively supported the status quo in Palestine and the Middle East during the interwar period. This included the perpetuation of British imperial power in Palestine, the Jewish National Home (not an independent Jewish state) promised by the Balfour Declaration, and the rejection of Arab self-determination and independence.
Or here, read this from the Jewish virtual library.Jewish Virtual library said:
The Haavara transfer was a major factor in making possible the immigration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in the years 1933–1939, and together with the money invested by the immigrants themselves, in providing an incentive for the expansion of agricultural settlement and for general economic development. It also served as a model for a similar arrangement with the Czech government and the immigration of several thousand Jews on the eve of World War II.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0008_0_08075.htmlEdited by Halb on Thursday 28th April 23:44
desolate said:
I am intrigued - what is the relevance of the length of time one has been "in PH"?
And, if I am allowed a supplementary question, how long is long enough?
Oh rightAnd, if I am allowed a supplementary question, how long is long enough?
I didnt use 'long enough' in reference to time
It was more in the form 'been around to realise what goes on'
Maybe think of it as on the job training
You get out of it as much as you put in. Sometimes its not an easy ride.
Sometimes a light bulb moment - yep thats what happened there
Joey Ramone said:
People are conveniently forgetting that the significant, indeed overwhelming majority of Jews exterminated by the Nazi regime were drawn from well outside Germany's borders. Those jews were always, from the very beginning of the awakening of Hitler's political ideology, marked down for eradication - no deportation for them. Not even slavery. Simply death. The notion that Hitler was happy to just give 'The Jews' a ticket to Palestine and a pat on the back before the Second World War put a stick in his spokes is absolute, ahistorical bks.
No-one on here conveniently forgetting anything as far as I can tell, just trying to find out whether Kens comment has any factual grounding and is it fair for him to be labelled a racist, anti-Semite and suspended from the LP because of it.ks.saaby93 said:
h right
I didnt use 'long enough' in reference to time
It was more in the form 'been around to realise what goes on'
Maybe think of it as on the job training
You get out of it as much as you put in. Sometimes its not an easy ride.
Sometimes a light bulb moment - yep thats what happened there
Right-oh, skipper.I didnt use 'long enough' in reference to time
It was more in the form 'been around to realise what goes on'
Maybe think of it as on the job training
You get out of it as much as you put in. Sometimes its not an easy ride.
Sometimes a light bulb moment - yep thats what happened there
Joey Ramone said:
People are conveniently forgetting that the significant, indeed overwhelming majority of Jews exterminated by the Nazi regime were drawn from well outside Germany's borders. Those jews were always, from the very beginning of the awakening of Hitler's political ideology, marked down for eradication - no deportation for them. Not even slavery. Simply death. The notion that Hitler was happy to just give 'The Jews' a ticket to Palestine and a pat on the back before the Second World War put a stick in his spokes is absolute, ahistorical bks.
The biggest piece of forgetfulness in this thread is that the First Solution was a voluntary repatriation, with all assistance given, it's not any sort of testicular insult. It's a matter of historical fact. Like it or not, none of us has a say, it happened. You are wrong with regard to being marked down for extermination from day one. History damns your assertion. Again none of us has a say, that's how it was.ks.avinalarf said:
You're doing it again.
My knowledge of this episode in history is vague,forgive me,but even if a few Jews did feel that it was necessary to collude with the Nazis in order to save their fellow Jews rom their inevitable fate at the hands of the facists.
So what ?
There were even a few Jews that through fear and weakness of will,or perhaps they were just evil miserable sods,were used by the Nazis to betray other Jews.
So what ?
There were no doubt a few Jews who tried to sucker up to the facists to save their own skins or for financial gain.
So what ?
Not every Jew is a decent caring human being,he's just like anyone else,some good some bad some just evil.
But don't let that stop you using a random point in history whether factual or not illustrate..........
what exactly ?
What am I doing again? Please explain.My knowledge of this episode in history is vague,forgive me,but even if a few Jews did feel that it was necessary to collude with the Nazis in order to save their fellow Jews rom their inevitable fate at the hands of the facists.
So what ?
There were even a few Jews that through fear and weakness of will,or perhaps they were just evil miserable sods,were used by the Nazis to betray other Jews.
So what ?
There were no doubt a few Jews who tried to sucker up to the facists to save their own skins or for financial gain.
So what ?
Not every Jew is a decent caring human being,he's just like anyone else,some good some bad some just evil.
But don't let that stop you using a random point in history whether factual or not illustrate..........
what exactly ?
What Ken said was accurate, as has been shown quite clearly. And yes, you do not know this area of history, do not assume that the Jews in question were nasty. Read the other article I posted, money was put forward not for greedy purposes but to create new lives in Palestine.
desolate said:
As this issue is really about politics not history, surely it doesn't really matter if Ken was factually correct or not?
It was piss poor politics.
Or are we know not arguing about Ken?
People are using nasty slurs like anti-semite and shutting down discussion of history and politics and people are getting suspended over this. Certain types are jumping on the bandwaggon and either wilfully or through ignorance chanting the same mantra. SOme posters on here want to throw away the facts of what is being debated to simply join the illogical chant.It was piss poor politics.
Or are we know not arguing about Ken?
I thought the whole point that it does matter if Ken is correct, because then he cannot be accused of what he is accused of. This goes beyond Switfian satire. It doesn't matter that Ken told the truth because he's a liar because he is?
Halb said:
desolate said:
As this issue is really about politics not history, surely it doesn't really matter if Ken was factually correct or not?
It was piss poor politics.
Or are we know not arguing about Ken?
People are using nasty slurs like anti-semite and shutting down discussion of history and politics and people are getting suspended over this. Certain types are jumping on the bandwaggon and either wilfully or through ignorance chanting the same mantra. SOme posters on here want to throw away the facts of what is being debated to simply join the illogical chant.It was piss poor politics.
Or are we know not arguing about Ken?
I thought the whole point that it does matter if Ken is correct, because then he cannot be accused of what he is accused of. This goes beyond Switfian satire. It doesn't matter that Ken told the truth because he's a liar because he is?
SWoll said:
Totally agree Halb. He's been branded a racist, anti-Semite and suspended from the LP after making a comment that we are now discussing the factual validity of. Quite where some of the other posters on the thread are trying to take the discussion is beyond me and goes to prove how you cannot have an adult discussion on topics such as this without madness descending on the thread.
Sorry - side issue going onIf my first post on page one is ok, and the labour party has suspended the wrong guy - there'll be a reinstatement tomorrow?
Halb said:
Right, once more for the hard of thinking. The Haavara settlement only applied to German Jews, of which in the mid 1930's numbered around 500,000. It did not apply to the millions of Jews that resided in the lands to the East that were earmarked for conquest.Indeed, it could never have done, because the Haavara settlement was an economic transaction that was related to the ability of German Jews, and no-one else. It was designed so that German Jews would make payments into a fund in Berlin that would provide them with sufficient credits to gain a visa into Palestine. None of this ever applied to Jews in Poland, Eastern Europe, or the Soviet Union, where the majority of the victims of the holocaust resided.
Halb said:
It doesn't matter that Ken told the truth because he's a liar because he is?
Since when did the truth matter in politics?If he had kept is trap shut, no story.
Politics is a political game and he was rubbish at it today.
Andrew Neil was practically falling off his chair in incredulity at what he was hearing.
As for the facts of the matter, it's not really my area and I don't know. Hitler was a bit of
. Anyone using him in modern day political argument is on a sticky wicket.But I do know the there is an enormous difference between hating jews and hating what the government of Israel does.
saaby93 said:
SWoll said:
Totally agree Halb. He's been branded a racist, anti-Semite and suspended from the LP after making a comment that we are now discussing the factual validity of. Quite where some of the other posters on the thread are trying to take the discussion is beyond me and goes to prove how you cannot have an adult discussion on topics such as this without madness descending on the thread.
Sorry - side issue going onIf my first post on page one is ok, and the labour party has suspended the wrong guy - there'll be a reinstatement tomorrow?
Joey Ramone said:
Right, once more for the hard of thinking. The Haavara settlement only applied to German Jews, of which in the mid 1930's numbered around 500,000. It did not apply to the millions of Jews that resided in the lands to the East that were earmarked for conquest.
Indeed, it could never have done, because the Haavara settlement was an economic transaction that was related to the ability of German Jews, and no-one else. It was designed so that German Jews would make payments into a fund in Berlin that would provide them with sufficient credits to gain a visa into Palestine. None of this ever applied to Jews in Poland, Eastern Europe, or the Soviet Union, where the majority of the victims of the holocaust resided.
Who said otherwise?Indeed, it could never have done, because the Haavara settlement was an economic transaction that was related to the ability of German Jews, and no-one else. It was designed so that German Jews would make payments into a fund in Berlin that would provide them with sufficient credits to gain a visa into Palestine. None of this ever applied to Jews in Poland, Eastern Europe, or the Soviet Union, where the majority of the victims of the holocaust resided.
Halb said:
What am I doing again? Please explain.
What Ken said was accurate, as has been shown quite clearly. And yes, you do not know this area of history, do not assume that the Jews in question were nasty you silly anti-Semite, read the other article I posted, money was put forward not for greedy purposes but to create new lives in Palestine.
You may have intentionally or otherwise misconstrued the content of my post.What Ken said was accurate, as has been shown quite clearly. And yes, you do not know this area of history, do not assume that the Jews in question were nasty you silly anti-Semite, read the other article I posted, money was put forward not for greedy purposes but to create new lives in Palestine.
I may also have misconstrued your post.
My point was that whether Livingstone was,or was not,accurate in this point his long standing critisicm of Israel over many years and of Israeli governments of varying political colours has allowed the Jew haters,under the pretence of debate of thre Israel / Palestine problem legitimacy,to spew their bile.
My other point was that most Jews are no better or worse than most other human beings.
Anyway I'm going to bed now......good night.
P.S. Just noticed that you've edited out your comment " you silly little anti-semite" ....thanks for that......appreciated.
Edited by avinalarf on Friday 29th April 00:10
Joey Ramone said:
Right, once more for the hard of thinking. The Haavara settlement only applied to German Jews, of which in the mid 1930's numbered around 500,000. It did not apply to the millions of Jews that resided in the lands to the East that were earmarked for conquest.
Indeed, it could never have done, because the Haavara settlement was an economic transaction that was related to the ability of German Jews, and no-one else. It was designed so that German Jews would make payments into a fund in Berlin that would provide them with sufficient credits to gain a visa into Palestine. None of this ever applied to Jews in Poland, Eastern Europe, or the Soviet Union, where the majority of the victims of the holocaust resided.
Right for the hard of understanding, Ken talked about Hitler making agreements with Jews to send Jews to PAlestine, as we have shown you, he was correct. This was the point. HTH.Indeed, it could never have done, because the Haavara settlement was an economic transaction that was related to the ability of German Jews, and no-one else. It was designed so that German Jews would make payments into a fund in Berlin that would provide them with sufficient credits to gain a visa into Palestine. None of this ever applied to Jews in Poland, Eastern Europe, or the Soviet Union, where the majority of the victims of the holocaust resided.
avinalarf said:
You may have intentionally or otherwise misconstrued the content of my post.
I may also have misconstrued your post.
My point was that whether Livingstone was,or was not,accurate in this point his long standing critisicm of Israel over many years and of Israeli governments of varying political colours has allowed the Jew haters,under the pretence of debate of thre Israel / Palestine problem legitimacy,to spew their bile.
My other point was that most Jews are no better or worse than most other human beings.
Anyway I'm going to bed now......good night.
Fair enough, I may have. I think I am going mad in this thread. Good evening, sleep well!I may also have misconstrued your post.
My point was that whether Livingstone was,or was not,accurate in this point his long standing critisicm of Israel over many years and of Israeli governments of varying political colours has allowed the Jew haters,under the pretence of debate of thre Israel / Palestine problem legitimacy,to spew their bile.
My other point was that most Jews are no better or worse than most other human beings.
Anyway I'm going to bed now......good night.
I have enjoyed the debates here today (now yesterday). A few people have been informed about a forgotten historical record called Haavara which can never now be ignored without the 'ignoramus' being precisely what an ignoramus is and the commie-rats have taken a beating (from each other, hurrah!) so despite losing a significant amount of my written work by way of contribution to the dead thread to have revealed a far more complex picture of history. I've enjoyed it. Let's keep it civil, check if someone wants to hear what might spoil their day before saying it, Hitler is a 100% evil caricature these days and having that caricature revealed as such will cause upset for many, we must be kind and considerate to them as a result. This place is meant to be fun, ain't it!
Don't let the reds under the bed bite!
Don't let the reds under the bed bite!
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