Unions - geared up to oppose everything?
Discussion
With the demise of Labour from entering any real power over the next number of years (a good thing IMO), which is largely thanks to the SNP for taking the scottish labour vote...... is it now left to the unions to oppose more or less EVERYTHING the Tory government attempt to implement?
I'm just wondering how petty and far reaching they will go?
In the UK's version of democracy, aren't we supposed to expect the party in power to implement measures that were voted for, giving them a mandate to action what they do (assuming it passes both house of commons and house of lords of course).
So when does it then become 'democratic' for unions (usually backed up by lefty TV and media) to attempt to undermine the wishes of voting public?
I'm just wondering how petty and far reaching they will go?
In the UK's version of democracy, aren't we supposed to expect the party in power to implement measures that were voted for, giving them a mandate to action what they do (assuming it passes both house of commons and house of lords of course).
So when does it then become 'democratic' for unions (usually backed up by lefty TV and media) to attempt to undermine the wishes of voting public?
SamR380 said:
Why shouldn't they?
Are you really saying that if the majority of people voted for you to get a pay cut and/or worse working conditions you’d be fine with that?
It very much depends on what is driving the need to change working conditions.Are you really saying that if the majority of people voted for you to get a pay cut and/or worse working conditions you’d be fine with that?
In Germany, the Unions concerned with private (non-monopolistic) companies seem to generally do a reasonable job in balancing the rights and requirements of the employees with the needs and commercial constraints of the business. An employee is better having a job on reduced terms than no job at all because the company has gone bust!
In the UK, Unions are most frequently associated with public sector workers (or private sector monopolies) where they seem to think that employees can only ever change for the better and real world demographics and economics can be ignored.
IMO
The OP trots out the Tory Governments latest verbal weapon, 'it's in our manifesto and the public voted us into Government'.
That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
crankedup said:
The OP trots out the Tory Governments latest verbal weapon, 'it's in our manifesto and the public voted us into Government'.
That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to suggest:That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
'Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and format that has due regard for those affected and represented by their Unions'.
Else you are likely to have the crazy situation where terms can only get better...
crankedup said:
The OP trots out the Tory Governments latest verbal weapon, 'it's in our manifesto and the public voted us into Government'.
That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
Its not a "carte blance" if it passes house of commons AND house of lords though is it?That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
That is why the house of lords exists - to have a sense of balance and control over an easy majority government.
sidicks said:
In the UK, Unions are most frequently associated with public sector workers (or private sector monopolies) where they seem to think that employees can only ever change for the better and real world demographics and economics can be ignored.
IMO
as you say unions in the country are associated with the loud ones rmt, miners etc.IMO
there are many unions that are working with both sides to save jobs and help companies survive.
i was active in union for many years and we actively approached our members and suggested that we drop any negotiation for a cost of living rise with the company, in return the compulsory redundancies that the company had mentioned would not happen. we also negotiated the terms of the voluntary package out.
we were told the couldn't guarantee the compulsory ones wouldn't happen, but it would greatly reduce them by 75% (lot of people). funny thing was when we went back to the staff, loads decided they wanted out and took voluntary, it was over-subscribed by 5-1 so the company had to say no to a lot of people.
when it was all over the company where quite grateful as they had expected, strikes, work to rule and lots more money to make people go.
whatever side of the fence, sensible people can work together to manage a problem.
sidicks said:
In Germany, the Unions concerned with private (non-monopolistic) companies seem to generally do a reasonable job in balancing the rights and requirements of the employees with the needs and commercial constraints of the business. An employee is better having a job on reduced terms than no job at all because the company has gone bust!
In the UK, Unions are most frequently associated with public sector workers (or private sector monopolies) where they seem to think that employees can only ever change for the better and real world demographics and economics can be ignored.
IMO
Not sure about that, in a way many unions in the UK are a reflection of the class division and underlying struggle within society. In the UK, Unions are most frequently associated with public sector workers (or private sector monopolies) where they seem to think that employees can only ever change for the better and real world demographics and economics can be ignored.
IMO
German unions often hold real power within companies so disputes are resolved internally, expediently and without the need for industrial action (See: Codetermination) but I'm not sure this would ever fit with the UKs corporate culture. In the UK companies invest a disproportionate amount of executive power, financial resources and managerial responsibility with a few people rather than divested power structures and shared responsibility through the organisation. Both have benefits and drawbacks.
I'm actually really glad I work for an hierarchical organisation, although I play the game of pretending to care I couldn't care less what the rate of growth or returns are like (to the extent they keep paying me I suppose). Sure there are many ways we could make a lot more money but there isn't anything in it for me to make those changes, in fact quite the reverse in some cases as change can require taking risks. If divested through the organisation I'd feel much more personally responsible and hence be sort of cornered into taking on a lot more responsibility, improving outcomes for stakeholders etc.
As an investor of course my views would be different. I'd never want to own shares in a company I'd want to work for
.ALT F4 said:
crankedup said:
The OP trots out the Tory Governments latest verbal weapon, 'it's in our manifesto and the public voted us into Government'.
That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
Its not a "carte blance" if it passes house of commons AND house of lords though is it?That's all very well and dandy, however it is not to say the Government has carte Blanche to ride roughshod over employees as it pleases. Government has the responsibility to create the correct conditions and formatt that is reasonable and acceptable to those affected and represented by their Unions.
That is why the house of lords exists - to have a sense of balance and control over an easy majority government.
To offer another example, teachers and academies.
jesta1865 said:
sidicks said:
In the UK, Unions are most frequently associated with public sector workers (or private sector monopolies) where they seem to think that employees can only ever change for the better and real world demographics and economics can be ignored.
IMO
as you say unions in the country are associated with the loud ones rmt, miners etc.IMO
there are many unions that are working with both sides to save jobs and help companies survive.
i was active in union for many years and we actively approached our members and suggested that we drop any negotiation for a cost of living rise with the company, in return the compulsory redundancies that the company had mentioned would not happen. we also negotiated the terms of the voluntary package out.
we were told the couldn't guarantee the compulsory ones wouldn't happen, but it would greatly reduce them by 75% (lot of people). funny thing was when we went back to the staff, loads decided they wanted out and took voluntary, it was over-subscribed by 5-1 so the company had to say no to a lot of people.
when it was all over the company where quite grateful as they had expected, strikes, work to rule and lots more money to make people go.
whatever side of the fence, sensible people can work together to manage a problem.
In addition many Unions offer membership welfare benefits including convelacent and a host of other benefits. Unfortunately many people read the Dail Mail or other rag and see Unions as purely aggressors.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/...
Not sure why Germany is always used as a shining example of peace and unity.
Seems to me German workers can become just as fed up as some of their British counterparts.
Sorry if that confuses certain members who still equate the word 'union' with some 1970's relics.
Not sure why Germany is always used as a shining example of peace and unity.
Seems to me German workers can become just as fed up as some of their British counterparts.
Sorry if that confuses certain members who still equate the word 'union' with some 1970's relics.
legzr1 said:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/...
Not sure why Germany is always used as a shining example of peace and unity.
Seems to me German workers can become just as fed up as some of their British counterparts.
Sorry if that confuses certain members who still equate the word 'union' with some 1970's relics.
Interesting. It seems the tension between public and private sectors is not entirely the result of a Tory campaign to divide and conquer!Not sure why Germany is always used as a shining example of peace and unity.
Seems to me German workers can become just as fed up as some of their British counterparts.
Sorry if that confuses certain members who still equate the word 'union' with some 1970's relics.
speedy_thrills said:
Not sure about that, in a way many unions in the UK are a reflection of the class division and underlying struggle within society.
German unions often hold real power within companies so disputes are resolved internally, expediently and without the need for industrial action (See: Codetermination) but I'm not sure this would ever fit with the UKs corporate culture.
There are a few things here. German unions often hold real power within companies so disputes are resolved internally, expediently and without the need for industrial action (See: Codetermination) but I'm not sure this would ever fit with the UKs corporate culture.
1. Germany doesn't have the us'n'them culture of the UK.
They know they are all in it together. Maybe two world wars helped
form this opinion, maybe being in a republic, not a constitutional monarchy.
Would pensioning off Brenda and Phil the Greek and so leaving the Middle
Ages behind help move UK society forward ?
2. The German form of capitalism is much softer than the UK and US version.
Once you are employed in Germany, you are pretty much there for life.
In UK & US, there is a much more hire'n'fire mentality.
3. The UK tends to take a much more short term view than the Germans.
The UK tends to focus in on this year's balance sheet, the Germans tend
to take a strategic view.
Both countries could be viewed as some of the most successful on the planet,
so there are probably things to learn on both sides.
Everything that makes an employee's situation "worse" - yes.
With the system of government we have, governments in power assume a victory in a GE is a mandate "from the people of the U.K." to impose everything that it believes in. However that's why we have the House of Lords i.e. to sanity check (and sometimes sanitise) policy created by the nutters in the Commons.
With the system of government we have, governments in power assume a victory in a GE is a mandate "from the people of the U.K." to impose everything that it believes in. However that's why we have the House of Lords i.e. to sanity check (and sometimes sanitise) policy created by the nutters in the Commons.
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