Migrant smugglers shot in France
Discussion
Bring on the clowns said:
greygoose said:
Only a matter of time before turbobloke arrives and says that as you have posted then you are a part of what is wrong!
The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
So anyone who despises and won't shed tears for vermin who prey on the desperate and vulnerable, leaving some dead rather than just disappointed, is extremely right wing? What an idiot statement, posted by an idiot idiotic enough to pounce on the wrong thread to flaunt his publicly-on-my-sleeve 'right thinking', reasonable, civilised, liberal, look at me I'm so nice bleeding heart persona. Prat.The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
The poor man's EricMc
greygoose said:
Bring on the clowns said:
greygoose said:
Only a matter of time before turbobloke arrives and says that as you have posted then you are a part of what is wrong!
The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
So anyone who despises and won't shed tears for vermin who prey on the desperate and vulnerable, leaving some dead rather than just disappointed, is extremely right wing? What an idiot statement, posted by an idiot idiotic enough to pounce on the wrong thread to flaunt his publicly-on-my-sleeve 'right thinking', reasonable, civilised, liberal, look at me I'm so nice bleeding heart persona. Prat.The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
The poor man's EricMc
(In addition to being shot)Bring on the clowns said:
greygoose said:
Bring on the clowns said:
greygoose said:
Only a matter of time before turbobloke arrives and says that as you have posted then you are a part of what is wrong!
The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
So anyone who despises and won't shed tears for vermin who prey on the desperate and vulnerable, leaving some dead rather than just disappointed, is extremely right wing? What an idiot statement, posted by an idiot idiotic enough to pounce on the wrong thread to flaunt his publicly-on-my-sleeve 'right thinking', reasonable, civilised, liberal, look at me I'm so nice bleeding heart persona. Prat.The extreme right wing do seem to dominate here.
The poor man's EricMc
[sighs tearfully] Its what they would have wanted.
Eric Mc said:
There is something going dreadfully wrong in the PH news section at the moment.
I cannot believe some of the comments I am seeing.
You can't say that. They'll get very upset with you!I cannot believe some of the comments I am seeing.
I used the word "scum" to decribe the sort of people who post these comments, didn't mention any poster by name, but lots of them got very upset.
IT is a concern- certaily NP&E has got more right wing (and i consider myself right wing already).
For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
MarshPhantom said:
Seriously?
Do you actually read what you post or think about how they come across?
Yes of course I do, what a stupid question. AFAIK I stay within the rules of posting and am careful to not hurt peoples feelings. If any of my opinions upset your sensibilities or make me a BNP candidate in your opinion, so be it.Do you actually read what you post or think about how they come across?
got to be honest I'm sad that an innocent (the biker) died... as for the scumbags my well of sympathy has run dry, I'll save my sorrow for those who deserve it. Those who feast upon the misery of others (eg people smugglers) and those who use firearms/weapons to (effectively) bully their way out of trouble (or at least try to) deserve every piece of metal that ends up being lodged in their bodies.
PugwasHDJ80 said:
IT is a concern- certaily NP&E has got more right wing (and i consider myself right wing already).
For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
I suspect the nation at large is getting more and more this way...extremes of views on either side (left or right) getting the air time, less balanced debate and logical discussion. It evidently appeals to the human race...For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
Murph7355 said:
PugwasHDJ80 said:
IT is a concern- certaily NP&E has got more right wing (and i consider myself right wing already).
For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
I suspect the nation at large is getting more and more this way...extremes of views on either side (left or right) getting the air time, less balanced debate and logical discussion. It evidently appeals to the human race...For me, its the unpleasant tone to some replies, coupled with the lack of any intelligence.
A long time ago NP&E used to have some informed debates, it seems now to be becoming a place to make only unpleasant statements.
perhaps we should ban one line responses in NP&E in order to encourage debate rather than edless reaction.
We seem to be moving from Private Eye to the Sun/Daily Mail. I miss the former.
Being labelled as racist, sexist, islamophobic, anti gay, or whatever else has the potential to deeply affect peoples careers (especially in the public sector) so these labels are used as weapons to silence debate and suppress discussion about genuinely held fears.
And people have gotten tired of effectively being told what to think by a liberal, bien pensant cadre in society who see it as their duty to be the moral guardians of "the right way to be". Forget the fact that most people in this country simply want to get along with each other and really could not give a flying fig about the colour of someones skin, their arrangement of their genitalia, their choice of God, or their choice of sexuality, No, our liberal guardians have decided that what they have to do is make sure that nobody ever questions anything. No matter what happens, no matter what the stated motives, no matter how awful, the underlying causes and motivations must not be examined. We, society, just have to accept that stuff happens, perpetrated by people who's backgrounds, beliefs or motivations are apparently utterly irrelevant to their actions.
Remember, to question is to risk being labelled.
Against that background, and the climate of censorship that this creates for those who dare not risk being misinterpreted or missunderstood it is little wonder that a pressure cooker of resentment has built up. The simple fact is that most people don't have time or the skill to craft carefully constructed answers to questions that avoid causing offence to someone, somewhere, so most simply keep schtumm ( to the delight of the liberal elite)
Does anyone remember this prime example of an ordinary person being labelled for asking a simple (if clumsy) question? :
Duffy: We had it drummed in when I was a child with mine … it was education, health service and looking after the people who are vulnerable. But there's too many people now who are vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.
Brown: But they shouldn't be doing that, there is no life on the dole for people any more. If you are unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months.
Duffy: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?
Later, as he was leaving
Brown: Very good to meet you, and you're wearing the right colour today. Ha, ha, ha: How many grandchildren do you have?
Duffy: Two. They've just got back from Australia where they got stuck for 10 days. They couldn't get back with this ash crisis.
Brown: We've been trying to get people back quickly. Are they going to university. Is that the plan?
Duffy: I hope so. They're only 12 and 10.
Brown: Are they're doing well at school? [pats Duffy on the back] A good family, good to see you. It's very nice to see you.
In the car
Brown: That was a disaster. Well I just ... should never have put me in with that woman. Whose idea was that?
Aide: I don't know, I didn't see.
Brown: It was Sue [Nye] I think. It was just ridiculous.
Aide: I'm not sure if they [the media] will go with that.
Brown: They will go with that.
Aide: What did she say?
Brown: Oh everything, she was just a sort of bigoted woman. She said she used be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous.
So Mrs Duffy was instantly labelled a bigoted old woman for questioning migrant numbers... And people wonder why there is so much anger out there?????
When the release comes it is often extreme and uncontrolled. People are angry. Stuff gets said, and they stop caring who they offend. In their own minds eye they know they are not racist or sexist etc, they just want to know the answers.
The purpose of labelling is clearly to ridicule, to silence and to dismiss the opinions of the speaker.
No attempt is ever made to understand the points being made. Instead it comes down to cheap "victories" which ultimately create the kinds of frustrations and slanging matches that are all too common.
Remember the video of the "clearly hard of thinking" BNP supporter talking about Muslamic Rape gangs? Oh ho ho ho, how he was laughed at and ridiculed. Muslamic ray guns? haha! Again, let's just dismiss him. Except, as we have subsequently found out, despite his being largely incoherent, he was actually right! Thousands suffered, and it is clear that one of the reasons why the suffering went on for so long and was so widespread is because public sector workers in the Police and Social services were scared stiff of being branded as racist if they investigated the complaints! To be branded meant career death!
So people got angry, and the result is that extreme organisations like the BNP and other foul creations of similar ilk gain traction simply because they are the ONLY people prepared to give voice to the many concerns that ordinary people have - concerns which if they dared to voice them would see them criticised and labelled and attacked.
In other words, it's getting more extreme because the liberals have yet to cotton on to the fact that stifling debate in this way does nothing for cohesion, it just makes people angry. The best way forward to to ENCOURAGE questions and to debate openly without fear. That is not a carte blanche for every racist or sexist attitude - there will always be extremes that are unacceptable. But the way to deal with them is to put them in the light, to expose them, not to suppress them or pretend that because you have stifled the debate the topic has somehow gone away.
We see it on PH all the time. Try to have a discussion about anything contentious and you'll be labelled as soon as you can blink. Just look at the thread on here about the stuff that happened in Germany on new years eve. It was IMPOSSIBLE to have a sensible discussion. Every new revelation was greeted (by the usual suspects) with smeary hints at "real agendas" and such like. Now we know that more than 1000 crimes were committed and we can see easily why people are angry, confused and upset.
Better to deal with the issues, or better to sweep it under the carpet and label as racist anyone who dares to challenge?
Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'm not sure I have managed to say what I wanted to say!
andymadmak said:
I'd say there was something in the first part of your answer, but I'd disagree that it's because it appeals to the human race. I'd say that what we are seeing is a backlash against what many many people see as a long period of people being afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled.
Being labelled as racist, sexist, islamophobic, anti gay, or whatever else has the potential to deeply affect peoples careers (especially in the public sector) so these labels are used as weapons to silence debate and suppress discussion about genuinely held fears.
And people have gotten tired of effectively being told what to think by a liberal, bien pensant cadre in society who see it as their duty to be the moral guardians of "the right way to be". Forget the fact that most people in this country simply want to get along with each other and really could not give a flying fig about the colour of someones skin, their arrangement of their genitalia, their choice of God, or their choice of sexuality, No, our liberal guardians have decided that what they have to do is make sure that nobody ever questions anything. No matter what happens, no matter what the stated motives, no matter how awful, the underlying causes and motivations must not be examined. We, society, just have to accept that stuff happens, perpetrated by people who's backgrounds, beliefs or motivations are apparently utterly irrelevant to their actions.
Remember, to question is to risk being labelled.
Against that background, and the climate of censorship that this creates for those who dare not risk being misinterpreted or missunderstood it is little wonder that a pressure cooker of resentment has built up. The simple fact is that most people don't have time or the skill to craft carefully constructed answers to questions that avoid causing offence to someone, somewhere, so most simply keep schtumm ( to the delight of the liberal elite)
Does anyone remember this prime example of an ordinary person being labelled for asking a simple (if clumsy) question? :
Duffy: We had it drummed in when I was a child with mine … it was education, health service and looking after the people who are vulnerable. But there's too many people now who are vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.
Brown: But they shouldn't be doing that, there is no life on the dole for people any more. If you are unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months.
Duffy: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?
Later, as he was leaving
Brown: Very good to meet you, and you're wearing the right colour today. Ha, ha, ha: How many grandchildren do you have?
Duffy: Two. They've just got back from Australia where they got stuck for 10 days. They couldn't get back with this ash crisis.
Brown: We've been trying to get people back quickly. Are they going to university. Is that the plan?
Duffy: I hope so. They're only 12 and 10.
Brown: Are they're doing well at school? [pats Duffy on the back] A good family, good to see you. It's very nice to see you.
In the car
Brown: That was a disaster. Well I just ... should never have put me in with that woman. Whose idea was that?
Aide: I don't know, I didn't see.
Brown: It was Sue [Nye] I think. It was just ridiculous.
Aide: I'm not sure if they [the media] will go with that.
Brown: They will go with that.
Aide: What did she say?
Brown: Oh everything, she was just a sort of bigoted woman. She said she used be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous.
So Mrs Duffy was instantly labelled a bigoted old woman for questioning migrant numbers... And people wonder why there is so much anger out there?????
When the release comes it is often extreme and uncontrolled. People are angry. Stuff gets said, and they stop caring who they offend. In their own minds eye they know they are not racist or sexist etc, they just want to know the answers.
The purpose of labelling is clearly to ridicule, to silence and to dismiss the opinions of the speaker.
No attempt is ever made to understand the points being made. Instead it comes down to cheap "victories" which ultimately create the kinds of frustrations and slanging matches that are all too common.
Remember the video of the "clearly hard of thinking" BNP supporter talking about Muslamic Rape gangs? Oh ho ho ho, how he was laughed at and ridiculed. Muslamic ray guns? haha! Again, let's just dismiss him. Except, as we have subsequently found out, despite his being largely incoherent, he was actually right! Thousands suffered, and it is clear that one of the reasons why the suffering went on for so long and was so widespread is because public sector workers in the Police and Social services were scared stiff of being branded as racist if they investigated the complaints! To be branded meant career death!
So people got angry, and the result is that extreme organisations like the BNP and other foul creations of similar ilk gain traction simply because they are the ONLY people prepared to give voice to the many concerns that ordinary people have - concerns which if they dared to voice them would see them criticised and labelled and attacked.
In other words, it's getting more extreme because the liberals have yet to cotton on to the fact that stifling debate in this way does nothing for cohesion, it just makes people angry. The best way forward to to ENCOURAGE questions and to debate openly without fear. That is not a carte blanche for every racist or sexist attitude - there will always be extremes that are unacceptable. But the way to deal with them is to put them in the light, to expose them, not to suppress them or pretend that because you have stifled the debate the topic has somehow gone away.
We see it on PH all the time. Try to have a discussion about anything contentious and you'll be labelled as soon as you can blink. Just look at the thread on here about the stuff that happened in Germany on new years eve. It was IMPOSSIBLE to have a sensible discussion. Every new revelation was greeted (by the usual suspects) with smeary hints at "real agendas" and such like. Now we know that more than 1000 crimes were committed and we can see easily why people are angry, confused and upset.
Better to deal with the issues, or better to sweep it under the carpet and label as racist anyone who dares to challenge?
Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'm not sure I have managed to say what I wanted to say!
Well even if you didn't, you said it rather well. Being labelled as racist, sexist, islamophobic, anti gay, or whatever else has the potential to deeply affect peoples careers (especially in the public sector) so these labels are used as weapons to silence debate and suppress discussion about genuinely held fears.
And people have gotten tired of effectively being told what to think by a liberal, bien pensant cadre in society who see it as their duty to be the moral guardians of "the right way to be". Forget the fact that most people in this country simply want to get along with each other and really could not give a flying fig about the colour of someones skin, their arrangement of their genitalia, their choice of God, or their choice of sexuality, No, our liberal guardians have decided that what they have to do is make sure that nobody ever questions anything. No matter what happens, no matter what the stated motives, no matter how awful, the underlying causes and motivations must not be examined. We, society, just have to accept that stuff happens, perpetrated by people who's backgrounds, beliefs or motivations are apparently utterly irrelevant to their actions.
Remember, to question is to risk being labelled.
Against that background, and the climate of censorship that this creates for those who dare not risk being misinterpreted or missunderstood it is little wonder that a pressure cooker of resentment has built up. The simple fact is that most people don't have time or the skill to craft carefully constructed answers to questions that avoid causing offence to someone, somewhere, so most simply keep schtumm ( to the delight of the liberal elite)
Does anyone remember this prime example of an ordinary person being labelled for asking a simple (if clumsy) question? :
Duffy: We had it drummed in when I was a child with mine … it was education, health service and looking after the people who are vulnerable. But there's too many people now who are vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.
Brown: But they shouldn't be doing that, there is no life on the dole for people any more. If you are unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months.
Duffy: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?
Later, as he was leaving
Brown: Very good to meet you, and you're wearing the right colour today. Ha, ha, ha: How many grandchildren do you have?
Duffy: Two. They've just got back from Australia where they got stuck for 10 days. They couldn't get back with this ash crisis.
Brown: We've been trying to get people back quickly. Are they going to university. Is that the plan?
Duffy: I hope so. They're only 12 and 10.
Brown: Are they're doing well at school? [pats Duffy on the back] A good family, good to see you. It's very nice to see you.
In the car
Brown: That was a disaster. Well I just ... should never have put me in with that woman. Whose idea was that?
Aide: I don't know, I didn't see.
Brown: It was Sue [Nye] I think. It was just ridiculous.
Aide: I'm not sure if they [the media] will go with that.
Brown: They will go with that.
Aide: What did she say?
Brown: Oh everything, she was just a sort of bigoted woman. She said she used be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous.
So Mrs Duffy was instantly labelled a bigoted old woman for questioning migrant numbers... And people wonder why there is so much anger out there?????
When the release comes it is often extreme and uncontrolled. People are angry. Stuff gets said, and they stop caring who they offend. In their own minds eye they know they are not racist or sexist etc, they just want to know the answers.
The purpose of labelling is clearly to ridicule, to silence and to dismiss the opinions of the speaker.
No attempt is ever made to understand the points being made. Instead it comes down to cheap "victories" which ultimately create the kinds of frustrations and slanging matches that are all too common.
Remember the video of the "clearly hard of thinking" BNP supporter talking about Muslamic Rape gangs? Oh ho ho ho, how he was laughed at and ridiculed. Muslamic ray guns? haha! Again, let's just dismiss him. Except, as we have subsequently found out, despite his being largely incoherent, he was actually right! Thousands suffered, and it is clear that one of the reasons why the suffering went on for so long and was so widespread is because public sector workers in the Police and Social services were scared stiff of being branded as racist if they investigated the complaints! To be branded meant career death!
So people got angry, and the result is that extreme organisations like the BNP and other foul creations of similar ilk gain traction simply because they are the ONLY people prepared to give voice to the many concerns that ordinary people have - concerns which if they dared to voice them would see them criticised and labelled and attacked.
In other words, it's getting more extreme because the liberals have yet to cotton on to the fact that stifling debate in this way does nothing for cohesion, it just makes people angry. The best way forward to to ENCOURAGE questions and to debate openly without fear. That is not a carte blanche for every racist or sexist attitude - there will always be extremes that are unacceptable. But the way to deal with them is to put them in the light, to expose them, not to suppress them or pretend that because you have stifled the debate the topic has somehow gone away.
We see it on PH all the time. Try to have a discussion about anything contentious and you'll be labelled as soon as you can blink. Just look at the thread on here about the stuff that happened in Germany on new years eve. It was IMPOSSIBLE to have a sensible discussion. Every new revelation was greeted (by the usual suspects) with smeary hints at "real agendas" and such like. Now we know that more than 1000 crimes were committed and we can see easily why people are angry, confused and upset.
Better to deal with the issues, or better to sweep it under the carpet and label as racist anyone who dares to challenge?
Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'm not sure I have managed to say what I wanted to say!
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