Setting up subwoofer phase
Discussion
About to take delivery of my new BK sub and doing some research on setup.
What's the best way to set up the adjustable phase so it matches my main speakers? One option is here http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/5/ but it suggests reversing the polarity of my mains which I don't like the sound of incase it damages either the speakers or the amp.
Second option is to play a test tone at the crossover frequency (eg 80hz) and adjust the phase until it's loudest, measured using an SPL meter. I've found iPhone apps that will play the tone and measure how loud it is. Will this work?
What's the best way to set up the adjustable phase so it matches my main speakers? One option is here http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/5/ but it suggests reversing the polarity of my mains which I don't like the sound of incase it damages either the speakers or the amp.
Second option is to play a test tone at the crossover frequency (eg 80hz) and adjust the phase until it's loudest, measured using an SPL meter. I've found iPhone apps that will play the tone and measure how loud it is. Will this work?
It's an active sub driven from the LFE output on the AV processor. There's only one way to connect it, then you use the phase control to adjust it so the crossover is smooth with the main, front speakers. From the manual:
"The P12-300 has a fully adjustable phase control to allow partial cancellation of the frequencies around the crossover point between the two systems. Listen to the quality of the bass with the phase in the 0 deg position and then slowly adjust towards the 180 deg position . Choose the position that subjectively offers the tightest cleanest bass."
"The P12-300 has a fully adjustable phase control to allow partial cancellation of the frequencies around the crossover point between the two systems. Listen to the quality of the bass with the phase in the 0 deg position and then slowly adjust towards the 180 deg position . Choose the position that subjectively offers the tightest cleanest bass."
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 5th May 18:50
wormus said:
About to take delivery of my new BK sub and doing some research on setup.
What's the best way to set up the adjustable phase so it matches my main speakers? One option is here http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/5/ but it suggests reversing the polarity of my mains which I don't like the sound of incase it damages either the speakers or the amp.
Second option is to play a test tone at the crossover frequency (eg 80hz) and adjust the phase until it's loudest, measured using an SPL meter. I've found iPhone apps that will play the tone and measure how loud it is. Will this work?
Setup is easier if done with two people; one adjusting phase, crossover and level whilst the other is sat at the main listening position. Position of the sub in the room and the position of the listener, relative to the sub, both have a huge impact on the bass level. In my experience the best overall sound quality is usually heard when the sub is nearer to the listening position; there are a few of reasons for this.What's the best way to set up the adjustable phase so it matches my main speakers? One option is here http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/5/ but it suggests reversing the polarity of my mains which I don't like the sound of incase it damages either the speakers or the amp.
Second option is to play a test tone at the crossover frequency (eg 80hz) and adjust the phase until it's loudest, measured using an SPL meter. I've found iPhone apps that will play the tone and measure how loud it is. Will this work?
1. The sub doesn't have to play as loud when its closer to the listener. This means lower driver excursion and less of the sub's amp power is needed.
2. The sub's, and system's, group delay is lower when the sub is near the listener. i.e it helps time align the sub better.
Good setup guides here https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connectio...
and here
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/basic-...
Dug this out of search in case you chaps had any experience and comments.
I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Edited by 911newbie on Tuesday 5th January 13:49
911newbie said:
Dug this out of search in case you chaps had any experience and comments.
I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Thanks for digging out my thread! I bought one of these monsters I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Edited by 911newbie on Tuesday 5th January 13:49
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
Very good for music. To make it work correctly you’ll need a low frequency output on your amp (rather than pre out). This is because the crossover needs to be set so only low frequencies the sub can handle are actually sent to it.
Below about 80hz, bass becomes non directional so you feel it more than hear it. This means the sound will appear to come from your speakers rather than the sub.
Edit: I forgot my/these subs have a frequency control which you can set so you should be all good with your pre-out. Assuming your amp will of course power your speakers with the Pre-out in use.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 5th January 15:03
And was the P12 overpowering for your room ?
(and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
(and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
911newbie said:
And was the P12 overpowering for your room ?
(and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
Room is 30’ x 30’ and it never feels pushed. Watching films with explosions will make the windows shake! That’s on about 30% low gain (volume) which you can see from the picture above. Don’t forget you need to adjust the output to match the main speakers. Done right you don’t even notice it’s there, but like adjusting an equaliser. Bigger is better otherwise you may as well use your main speakers for low bass.(and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 6th January 10:36
911newbie said:
And was the P12 overpowering for your room ?
(and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
They also do the double Gemini. Might be worth calling them, apparently they are knowledgeable and helpful. (and how big is the room it's in ?)
Does it ever feel pushed ? I guess not since it's got a quite powerful amplifier.
I'm concerned teh baby brother of yours, the Gemini, might be a little underpowered as a music sub, in a 6 x 6 living room (curtains, sofas etc)
Cheers !
Is the Arcam class A/B or is if class G. If the former then use the high level speaker input.
I have a BK XLS 200 DF with Audiolab 6000a and MA Silver RX1 and it’s superb. I found there is no need to mess around with phase with the high level. I tried the low level RCA input, and the gain was too low.
I would recommend the 200. It’s fast and goes down extremely low in music listening. I had chat with BK after I saw a test graph somewhere. It essentially goes deeper the lower the crossover is set. It punches deep watching movies too.
What strikes me the most is the ‘atmosphere’ it gives. In a live music track it immerses you giving the track not just depth, but a sense of openness. Airyness (sp).
In movies, say During a spaceship take off/landing it really hits you in the chest. The same for guns/bullets. Watched all the John Wicks over Christmas. It’s amazing what you actually miss by not having the sub on.
It’s not hard to integrate and position it. The advice of turning up the volume until you can hear it, then back it off a bit is correct. To the point where you don’t think you can hear it. But Turn it off and you’ll miss it.
I don’t think bigger is always better. The 10” 200 is fast. I also have a relatively 5m x10m. I would not want bigger. Maybe two....
I have a BK XLS 200 DF with Audiolab 6000a and MA Silver RX1 and it’s superb. I found there is no need to mess around with phase with the high level. I tried the low level RCA input, and the gain was too low.
I would recommend the 200. It’s fast and goes down extremely low in music listening. I had chat with BK after I saw a test graph somewhere. It essentially goes deeper the lower the crossover is set. It punches deep watching movies too.
What strikes me the most is the ‘atmosphere’ it gives. In a live music track it immerses you giving the track not just depth, but a sense of openness. Airyness (sp).
In movies, say During a spaceship take off/landing it really hits you in the chest. The same for guns/bullets. Watched all the John Wicks over Christmas. It’s amazing what you actually miss by not having the sub on.
It’s not hard to integrate and position it. The advice of turning up the volume until you can hear it, then back it off a bit is correct. To the point where you don’t think you can hear it. But Turn it off and you’ll miss it.
I don’t think bigger is always better. The 10” 200 is fast. I also have a relatively 5m x10m. I would not want bigger. Maybe two....
Edited by paultownsend on Sunday 10th January 14:26
wormus said:
911newbie said:
Dug this out of search in case you chaps had any experience and comments.
I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Thanks for digging out my thread! I bought one of these monsters I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Edited by 911newbie on Tuesday 5th January 13:49
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
Very good for music. To make it work correctly you’ll need a low frequency output on your amp (rather than pre out). This is because the crossover needs to be set so only low frequencies the sub can handle are actually sent to it.
Below about 80hz, bass becomes non directional so you feel it more than hear it. This means the sound will appear to come from your speakers rather than the sub.
Edit: I forgot my/these subs have a frequency control which you can set so you should be all good with your pre-out. Assuming your amp will of course power your speakers with the Pre-out in use.
As for set up, you really need to do the 'subwoofer crawl' - place the sub in your listening position as close as possible to where your ears would be, then put a song on with a strong bass line and crawl around the room with your head around the height of the sub until you find where it sounds best and place the sub in that position and fine tune the settings until you get it as you want/like.
I done this on Thursday as I'm in a new place and have different speakers since I last ran the room correction on my AV receiver - sub sounded best at 3 o'clock from my listening/watching spot but I had to place it at 4 o'clock as it won't fit under the table there. Watched Roger Waters - The Wall to test on Friday and it sounds fantastic, however I can tell where the sub is as I can feel the direction it's coming from (old building, worn floorboards) so I'm going to move it directly behind me until I get a sub isolation platform (and I'm moving again at some point from April)
The one I have I bought at least 20 years ago, Paradigm PDR 10 (10", 100w) and it does alright in this room which I'd say is 6m x 6m x 3m, although the system is in one half of the room.
I'd speak to BK and see what they recommend for music based systems.
stevoknevo said:
wormus said:
911newbie said:
Dug this out of search in case you chaps had any experience and comments.
I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Thanks for digging out my thread! I bought one of these monsters I'm thinking about a sub for my 2.0 hifi in the living room.
Looking at the BK subs because they do seem the best.
Living room is 6.0m x 6.0m, normal ceiling height, full of sofas, and other family stuff.
Primarily for music, but possibly movies too.
Existing speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 100s. Amp is Arcam SA20, and it has a pre-out which I'd use for the sub.
Would the BK Gemini be sufficient ?
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm[\url]
Or the P12
[url]http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm[\url]
Don't need anything super massive loud, but equally the sub shoudn't be pushed.
Comments and experience very welcome.
Sorry, messed up the formatting for the URL. Arse !
Edited by 911newbie on Tuesday 5th January 13:49
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
Very good for music. To make it work correctly you’ll need a low frequency output on your amp (rather than pre out). This is because the crossover needs to be set so only low frequencies the sub can handle are actually sent to it.
Below about 80hz, bass becomes non directional so you feel it more than hear it. This means the sound will appear to come from your speakers rather than the sub.
Edit: I forgot my/these subs have a frequency control which you can set so you should be all good with your pre-out. Assuming your amp will of course power your speakers with the Pre-out in use.
As for set up, you really need to do the 'subwoofer crawl' - place the sub in your listening position as close as possible to where your ears would be, then put a song on with a strong bass line and crawl around the room with your head around the height of the sub until you find where it sounds best and place the sub in that position and fine tune the settings until you get it as you want/like.
I done this on Thursday as I'm in a new place and have different speakers since I last ran the room correction on my AV receiver - sub sounded best at 3 o'clock from my listening/watching spot but I had to place it at 4 o'clock as it won't fit under the table there. Watched Roger Waters - The Wall to test on Friday and it sounds fantastic, however I can tell where the sub is as I can feel the direction it's coming from (old building, worn floorboards) so I'm going to move it directly behind me until I get a sub isolation platform (and I'm moving again at some point from April)
The one I have I bought at least 20 years ago, Paradigm PDR 10 (10", 100w) and it does alright in this room which I'd say is 6m x 6m x 3m, although the system is in one half of the room.
I'd speak to BK and see what they recommend for music based systems.
Steve, regarding you being able to hear where the sub is in your setup. You have a VERY tricky room there......in effect its half of a cube, What frequency cutoff are you using?
Crackie said:
Good advice here /\.
Steve, regarding you being able to hear where the sub is in your setup. You have a VERY tricky room there......in effect its half of a cube, What frequency cutoff are you using?
It's more I can feel where it's Steve, regarding you being able to hear where the sub is in your setup. You have a VERY tricky room there......in effect its half of a cube, What frequency cutoff are you using?
coming from, rather than hear it, due to old floorboards in this place Crackie - I'll try sticking a cushion under it for now and see if that helps. I was reading last week that the best way to set up with AVR's is to turn the crossover to max and let the AVR deal with it, so I did before running the room correction on the Anthem and it done a pretty good job to my ear TBH. I moved it right behind me earlier but haven't tested it yet.
I'm only here temporarily and it's certainly a comprise, I could stick the TV in the bay window and the fronts would be centred in the room, but am I hell blocking out this view whilst I have it!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DZTF9agtnkeFkqDZ6
Edited by stevoknevo on Monday 11th January 20:13
stevoknevo said:
It's more I can feel where it's
coming from, rather than hear it, due to old floorboards in this place Crackie - I'll try sticking a cushion under it for now and see if that helps. I was reading last week that the best way to set up with AVR's is to turn the crossover to max and let the AVR deal with it, so I did before running the room correction on the Anthem and it done a pretty good job to my ear TBH. I moved it right behind me earlier but haven't tested it yet.
This is what I did (see photo above). You shouldn’t be able to feel where the bass is coming from, I found a crossover frequency of 80hz worked well on my AV amp. Anything above that and you can tell where it is.coming from, rather than hear it, due to old floorboards in this place Crackie - I'll try sticking a cushion under it for now and see if that helps. I was reading last week that the best way to set up with AVR's is to turn the crossover to max and let the AVR deal with it, so I did before running the room correction on the Anthem and it done a pretty good job to my ear TBH. I moved it right behind me earlier but haven't tested it yet.
paultownsend said:
Is the Arcam class A/B or is if class G. If the former then use the high level speaker input.
I have a BK XLS 200 DF with Audiolab 6000a and MA Silver RX1 and it’s superb. I found there is no need to mess around with phase with the high level. I tried the low level RCA input, and the gain was too low.
I would recommend the 200. It’s fast and goes down extremely low in music listening. I had chat with BK after I saw a test graph somewhere. It essentially goes deeper the lower the crossover is set. It punches deep watching movies too.
What strikes me the most is the ‘atmosphere’ it gives. In a live music track it immerses you giving the track not just depth, but a sense of openness. Airyness (sp).
In movies, say During a spaceship take off/landing it really hits you in the chest. The same for guns/bullets. Watched all the John Wicks over Christmas. It’s amazing what you actually miss by not having the sub on.
It’s not hard to integrate and position it. The advice of turning up the volume until you can hear it, then back it off a bit is correct. To the point where you don’t think you can hear it. But Turn it off and you’ll miss it.
I don’t think bigger is always better. The 10” 200 is fast. I also have a relatively 5m x10m. I would not want bigger. Maybe two....
Yeah the SA20 is class G, so it switches from A/B to D as the power requirement rises. Never heard any sort of transmission between these modes, and am very happy with it all over. It seems more neutral, or less warm than the Marantz it replaced. I have a BK XLS 200 DF with Audiolab 6000a and MA Silver RX1 and it’s superb. I found there is no need to mess around with phase with the high level. I tried the low level RCA input, and the gain was too low.
I would recommend the 200. It’s fast and goes down extremely low in music listening. I had chat with BK after I saw a test graph somewhere. It essentially goes deeper the lower the crossover is set. It punches deep watching movies too.
What strikes me the most is the ‘atmosphere’ it gives. In a live music track it immerses you giving the track not just depth, but a sense of openness. Airyness (sp).
In movies, say During a spaceship take off/landing it really hits you in the chest. The same for guns/bullets. Watched all the John Wicks over Christmas. It’s amazing what you actually miss by not having the sub on.
It’s not hard to integrate and position it. The advice of turning up the volume until you can hear it, then back it off a bit is correct. To the point where you don’t think you can hear it. But Turn it off and you’ll miss it.
I don’t think bigger is always better. The 10” 200 is fast. I also have a relatively 5m x10m. I would not want bigger. Maybe two....
Edited by paultownsend on Sunday 10th January 14:26
The BK comes with both high level and pre-out connectors so I can try both.
Thinking of adding a poweramp later, which will use the pre-out from the SA20, at which point the sub will have to use the high level connector.
I've gone for the 12 inch P12 in DF format, since I can always turn it down.
Let's see how it works out !!!
STOP! Speak to both Arcam and BK before you try the high level speaker input. As I understand you can’t wire a class D amp up on this way. Something to do with the earthing. It may go fizz, crackle, pop.
To be fair I wanted the P12. BK said it still performed well with music but dug really deep for movies. But it’s massive, and I couldn’t get away with it!
To be fair I wanted the P12. BK said it still performed well with music but dug really deep for movies. But it’s massive, and I couldn’t get away with it!
Edited by paultownsend on Monday 11th January 21:59
paultownsend said:
To be fair I wanted the P12. BK said it still performed well with music but dug really deep for movies. But it’s massive, and I couldn’t get away with it!
To be fair, it depends what you class as massive. People occasionally ask “what the box in the corner is” but nobody trips over it. No point getting the small one unless you have satellite speakers and it does work very well with music or film.Edited by paultownsend on Monday 11th January 21:59
paultownsend said:
STOP! Speak to both Arcam and BK before you try the high level speaker input. As I understand you can’t wire a class D amp up on this way. Something to do with the earthing. It may go fizz, crackle, pop.
To be fair I wanted the P12. BK said it still performed well with music but dug really deep for movies. But it’s massive, and I couldn’t get away with it!
Thanks for the heads up.To be fair I wanted the P12. BK said it still performed well with music but dug really deep for movies. But it’s massive, and I couldn’t get away with it!
Edited by paultownsend on Monday 11th January 21:59
I'm giving the chaps at BK a call this afternoon.
I cannot find out if there is a DC offset on the high level outputs from the SA20. Nothing in the manual, nothing I can spot online, and no phone number for tech support at Arcam.
Seems I need the serial number to complete the query form for Arcam's web only tech support. Cheers guys - now I need to go dig out the amp sitting at the bottom of the stack.
I suspect the chaps at BK will know the answer very well.
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