Local Elections for Police Commissioner: why party political
Discussion
Doofus said:
I wondered the exact same thing.
I believe that, living in a democracy, I have a duty to vote. I believe we all do. However, I refuse to vote for the Commissioner thing because I think it is pointless, irrelevant, unproven and wasteful. If anybody can convince me otherwise, I would be happy to be corrected.
I do largely agree with you, but my belief that the post really shouldn't exist in the first place was outweighed by my conviction that the candidates shouldn't be aligned to political parties, so I felt the need to vote for an independent. In a county where everyone expected the Conservative candidate to walk it, the independent (who, granted, only stood as an independent after the Tories didn't select him!) won the first round by 13 votes, and by a fairly significant majority once second choice preferences were counted.I believe that, living in a democracy, I have a duty to vote. I believe we all do. However, I refuse to vote for the Commissioner thing because I think it is pointless, irrelevant, unproven and wasteful. If anybody can convince me otherwise, I would be happy to be corrected.
It's the first time in 28 years of being able to vote that I've actually felt as though my vote made any difference! Everywhere I've lived from the age of 18 has been one of the safest 50 seats for either Labour or the Conservatives, so voting always felt a little bit pointless before that!
Mark Benson said:
The only reason I made the effort to vote was that this time there was an independent ex-copper on the ballot.
The previous incumbent was a former Conservative councillor whose only contribution seems to have been to increase the number of speed camera vans from one to six (via a very heavily biased questionnaire
'Do you think
a) Speed cameras are great, we should have more,
b) Speed cameras are great, we should have lots more or
c) Speed cameras are great, lets fill the county with them').
The previous incumbent was a former Conservative councillor whose only contribution seems to have been to increase the number of speed camera vans from one to six (via a very heavily biased questionnaire
'Do you think
a) Speed cameras are great, we should have more,
b) Speed cameras are great, we should have lots more or
c) Speed cameras are great, lets fill the county with them').
There ought to be a standard form for a survey which includes none of the above you...
Truffles said:
Funk said:
I deliberately spoiled my PC vote with 'NONE'. They're a waste of money and simply not voting suggests apathy rather than disagreement with the whole thing.
I would have done the same, but I understand that even a spoiled ballot paper counts as a vote when they are calculating total turnout. I don't even want to legitimize this farce by allowing them to say that there is a higher turnout than before.This was recently discussed on the hallowed pages of "Conservative Home" and the view expressed there was that the candidates were political parties as it was the only way that the voters could relate to them. The idea was posited that having unknown business people or other interested candidates would be a non starter as the voters wouldn't have a clue who they were. Instead, voting for a colour was deemed acceptable.
Personally I've never believed that PCC should be associated with political parties as the post will simply always follow the local voting preference. In my own area it's Labour and so a Labour PCC has been elected, despite the fact she is a radical feminist and this has had an effect on the force which only provides a service for female victims of DV rather than a gender neutral stance. She will continue to be elected for ever more ( well, until she dies or retires) not because she is effective but because she wears a red rosette, and is able to influence policing policy as a result.
30% voted in the PCC election here but there were 8000 spoiled papers, just as an aside.
Personally I've never believed that PCC should be associated with political parties as the post will simply always follow the local voting preference. In my own area it's Labour and so a Labour PCC has been elected, despite the fact she is a radical feminist and this has had an effect on the force which only provides a service for female victims of DV rather than a gender neutral stance. She will continue to be elected for ever more ( well, until she dies or retires) not because she is effective but because she wears a red rosette, and is able to influence policing policy as a result.
30% voted in the PCC election here but there were 8000 spoiled papers, just as an aside.
Doofus said:
Incidentally; if voting is supposed to be anonymous, how come it isn't?
When you register, one person ticks your name off a list, and gives a number to the other person, who writes that on another list, next to the serial number of the voting slip you've been given. It is therefore dead easy to trace how a voter voted, or to whom a voting slip belongs.
I asked them this at the station, and said "So you can check to see how people voted then?" to which they said "Yes, but we don't."
Oh. Good. Well I feel much more anonymous now
'dead easy' for who? the ballot papers are kept securely, separately from the list of voters that would be needed to track your ballot paper down. ( amongst thousands). The ballot papers can only be checked against the list on the instructions of a Judge. When you register, one person ticks your name off a list, and gives a number to the other person, who writes that on another list, next to the serial number of the voting slip you've been given. It is therefore dead easy to trace how a voter voted, or to whom a voting slip belongs.
I asked them this at the station, and said "So you can check to see how people voted then?" to which they said "Yes, but we don't."
Oh. Good. Well I feel much more anonymous now
Anyone found a live PCC map?
This ones behind a login and you have to guess the colour code
https://policinginsight.com/analysis/results-map/
This ones behind a login and you have to guess the colour code
https://policinginsight.com/analysis/results-map/
Its a joke of a position. First of all, with less than 20% turnout, how can it be considered democratic when the elected turn up with less than 10% of the electorate voting for them? Secondly, if you're in a labour or con stronghold, the candidate for that party will be elected despite the fact that they have hugely overspent on their office, and have lied to the public about decisions which have been taken regarding policing. Im not sure what a PCC does for most of their time, but ours has bleated on about how many community meetings he has attended. Doesn't actually say he's done anything about it.
Unfortunately party politics won again and voted him back in.
Unfortunately party politics won again and voted him back in.
Chicken Chaser said:
Its a joke of a position. First of all, with less than 20% turnout, how can it be considered democratic when the elected turn up with less than 10% of the electorate voting for them? Secondly, if you're in a labour or con stronghold, the candidate for that party will be elected despite the fact that they have hugely overspent on their office, and have lied to the public about decisions which have been taken regarding policing. Im not sure what a PCC does for most of their time, but ours has bleated on about how many community meetings he has attended. Doesn't actually say he's done anything about it.
Unfortunately party politics won again and voted him back in.
I was fully expecting to be agreeing with you, but the actual results seem to disagree.Unfortunately party politics won again and voted him back in.
Of the 36 police forces which had an election, 11 actually changed hands. Of these, maybe surprisingly, six were from Independent to Conservative, so it would seem Tory voters were more pissed off about political candidates the first time round than Labour voters were.
More surprisingly, turnout increased in every single election, despite the fact that unlike last time, it was in many areas the only thing to vote for. Only three out of the 36 forces saw a turnout lower than 20%, and just as many saw a turnout of over 30%, with 14 of them seeing a double digit increase in turnout percentage.
I still disagree with political candidates, and I'm not convinced any of us really know enough about policing to be voting for them, but I did think the above was rather interesting.
Kermit power said:
I was fully expecting to be agreeing with you, but the actual results seem to disagree.
Of the 36 police forces which had an election, 11 actually changed hands. Of these, maybe surprisingly, six were from Independent to Conservative, so it would seem Tory voters were more pissed off about political candidates the first time round than Labour voters were.
More surprisingly, turnout increased in every single election, despite the fact that unlike last time, it was in many areas the only thing to vote for. Only three out of the 36 forces saw a turnout lower than 20%, and just as many saw a turnout of over 30%, with 14 of them seeing a double digit increase in turnout percentage.
I still disagree with political candidates, and I'm not convinced any of us really know enough about policing to be voting for them, but I did think the above was rather interesting.
The other way of looking at it, is that the new voters whatever their politics thought the conservative candidate would be stringer on policingOf the 36 police forces which had an election, 11 actually changed hands. Of these, maybe surprisingly, six were from Independent to Conservative, so it would seem Tory voters were more pissed off about political candidates the first time round than Labour voters were.
More surprisingly, turnout increased in every single election, despite the fact that unlike last time, it was in many areas the only thing to vote for. Only three out of the 36 forces saw a turnout lower than 20%, and just as many saw a turnout of over 30%, with 14 of them seeing a double digit increase in turnout percentage.
I still disagree with political candidates, and I'm not convinced any of us really know enough about policing to be voting for them, but I did think the above was rather interesting.
I'd like to see the full info on the turnout.
The PCC elections were run in conjunction with other elections in many places. Where I lived, it was on it own and those officiating reckoned turnout was worse than the previous PCC elections. With regards the changing of PCC from independent to a political party, one wonders if, when the PCC elections were on their own, the persons who voted were those who had researched the candidates. If the election had normal local elections at the same time then it was probable that those who normally vote for one of the mainstream parties would vote for the mainstream party.
Surrey, a hotbed of tory support I'm told, voted for an independent last time, one who knew an awful lot about police work and had some interesting ideas. Now Surrey has a faceless tory in charge.
It might be that the previous incumbent was rubbish at his role, but one wonders how anyone would know.
The limits on spending for those trying for PCC are such that it is almost as if those who made the rules wanted to keep info from the public.
The PCC elections were run in conjunction with other elections in many places. Where I lived, it was on it own and those officiating reckoned turnout was worse than the previous PCC elections. With regards the changing of PCC from independent to a political party, one wonders if, when the PCC elections were on their own, the persons who voted were those who had researched the candidates. If the election had normal local elections at the same time then it was probable that those who normally vote for one of the mainstream parties would vote for the mainstream party.
Surrey, a hotbed of tory support I'm told, voted for an independent last time, one who knew an awful lot about police work and had some interesting ideas. Now Surrey has a faceless tory in charge.
It might be that the previous incumbent was rubbish at his role, but one wonders how anyone would know.
The limits on spending for those trying for PCC are such that it is almost as if those who made the rules wanted to keep info from the public.
The reason why it is party political is it costs money to campaign and an independent funding for the PCC election couldn't afford to get the message out. The deposit alone is the same as a MEP (£5,000) rather than a MP (£500). Then if you wan to get just a single piece of literature out to every house is huge. Its not just that either. The areas are much bigger than any MP or councillor and so trying to get out the vote on eve of polls or election day requires hundreds of people to run it well. Only political parties have a possible network set up for this.
As for those saying it should be scrapped and pay for more police officers, that isn't going to happen ever. There will always be a political element to it.
This isn't some kind of new role, it has just replaced the former committees that used to do the job with a single person who is accountable. If the PCC was to be scrapped then the role would go back to councillors who are given the job by whoever the leader of the council is.
Also the point on it was never going to be politicised and it was only because Ed Milliband wanted to have it so the Tories went for it is nonsense. It was always going to be a role the Tories were going to stand in every area, however these were not going to get central funding. It was all down to the local associations. Ed Miliband decided against having a field of independent candidates to selecting political candidates throughout.
As for those saying it should be scrapped and pay for more police officers, that isn't going to happen ever. There will always be a political element to it.
This isn't some kind of new role, it has just replaced the former committees that used to do the job with a single person who is accountable. If the PCC was to be scrapped then the role would go back to councillors who are given the job by whoever the leader of the council is.
Also the point on it was never going to be politicised and it was only because Ed Milliband wanted to have it so the Tories went for it is nonsense. It was always going to be a role the Tories were going to stand in every area, however these were not going to get central funding. It was all down to the local associations. Ed Miliband decided against having a field of independent candidates to selecting political candidates throughout.
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