The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

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Discussion

EddieSteadyGo

11,726 posts

202 months

Friday 27th May 2016
quotequote all
Mr_B said:
Of course it can be mentioned, but if you bring it up and not mention Reckless in saying so and try and frame it as part of Brexit when it isn't, and isn't even possible to do, you have to think the person doing so was committing something utterly disingenuous to be utterly laughable if it wasn't so obviously naked fearmongering.
Even some Green party loon turned up today on the Daily Politics to tell Andrew Neil is marriage was at greater risk on a Brexit because EU nationals might face deportation. Its tin foil hat stuff sponsored by Bacofoil.

Cleggers got rubbished because of his economic assessments at the time and because he was proven disastrously wrong , again. Had anyone suggested because of his support back then it had anything to do with remain still wanting the Euro, it would have be disingenuous to the same degree. No one did though.


Edited by Mr_B on Friday 27th May 22:50
Just for clarity, I didn't bring it up.

And in discussing it, I did mention Mark Reckless (who I don't agree with by the way, but I also don't consider a loon).

And I have tried to provide some balance by giving my own views on what he said and how much weight should be applied to it (i.e. not much).




Mr_B

10,480 posts

242 months

Friday 27th May 2016
quotequote all
EddieSteadyGo said:
Mr_B said:
Of course it can be mentioned, but if you bring it up and not mention Reckless in saying so and try and frame it as part of Brexit when it isn't, and isn't even possible to do, you have to think the person doing so was committing something utterly disingenuous to be utterly laughable if it wasn't so obviously naked fearmongering.
Even some Green party loon turned up today on the Daily Politics to tell Andrew Neil is marriage was at greater risk on a Brexit because EU nationals might face deportation. Its tin foil hat stuff sponsored by Bacofoil.

Cleggers got rubbished because of his economic assessments at the time and because he was proven disastrously wrong , again. Had anyone suggested because of his support back then it had anything to do with remain still wanting the Euro, it would have be disingenuous to the same degree. No one did though.


Edited by Mr_B on Friday 27th May 22:50
Just for clarity, I didn't bring it up.

And in discussing it, I did mention Mark Reckless (who I don't agree with by the way, but I also don't consider a loon).

And I have tried to provide some balance by giving my own views on what he said and how much weight should be applied to it (i.e. not much).
Also for clarity, I didn't mean you brought it up, I was meaning the Labour guy today who did so in an interview and who just randomly added it as a scare story without mentioning Reckless, acknowledging it was not what Vote Leave were campaigning on, that it has any reality in legal basis or just doing so by saying this is what Ukip wants, something that he might get away had he played the Ukip card, but even then its not Ukip policy either.

hidetheelephants

23,772 posts

192 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
///ajd said:
Yep, no one on the brexit side would threaten to deport EU nationals.

"European Union (EU) migrants should be deported from Britain "after a fixed period" if the UK leaves the economic and political union, Mark Reckless, the UKIP candidate for the Rochester and Strood has suggested. Some migrants could be forced to leave the country after a UK exit from the EU."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukips-mark-reckless-eu-mi...
You're quoting Mark Reckless? rofla no-mark that got the bum's rush from the electorate at the GE; he's got as much authority on the subject as I have. You might as well quote someone from EDL or Stormfront scumbags off Facebook.
Cobnapint said:
He was like a hypnotised remain zombie that couldn't stop spouting sh*te.

Neil could have destroyed him completely if he'd wanted to, but I think he felt sorry for him in the end.
That guy was utter rubbish; I can't tell if he was just intimidated by being on TV or he had no arguments worth sharing, the waffly non-explanation of why there would be recession in the event of 'out' but not the event of 'in' was so qualified as to be meaningless.

The Green Party moron at the end was unbelievable; vote to stay to avoid divorce and your EU national partner being deported? Utter piffle as Boris would probably say.

On top of all that we got an apologia for and by Tony Blair, about how they hadn't expected bad things to happen when they created a power vacuum by toppling the Iraqi government and cleansing the civil service of Baathists, which is either a lie or an admission of stupifying doltishness.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Saturday 28th May 06:53

///ajd

8,964 posts

205 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
Mr_B said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Mr_B said:
///ajd said:
Mr_B said:
///ajd said:
Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."
Today's outright scare story is the forced deportations of legal EU nationals ... utterly fabricated nonsense to outright bullst with no basis on reality.
Yep, no one on the brexit side would threaten to deport EU nationals.

"European Union (EU) migrants should be deported from Britain "after a fixed period" if the UK leaves the economic and political union, Mark Reckless, the UKIP candidate for the Rochester and Strood has suggested. Some migrants could be forced to leave the country after a UK exit from the EU."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukips-mark-reckless-eu-mi...
It's not party policy for Ukip, the Brexit campaign or even his current view. It's the same as saying Vote Remain because Nick Clegg ( along with all those economists you rely on ) wanted to join the Euro. So which is it ?
It isn't quite the same - Mark Reckless, who is a pretty senior member of UKIP, was saying this only 18 months ago.
I disagree, but then do I have to dig up quotes from every remain loon who wants total open borders to the whole world, to still join the Euro or half a hundred mad other ideas and hold them up as the currents views and campaign points of Vote Remain ?
We are going to have a Conservative or Labour government. Both of them being liable to uphold various rules and treaties that mean it can't even happen, even if everyone voted Ukip and Reckless was party leader. Can you see how disingenuous it now looks ?
Spreading this around is pure bullst.
I brought it up only as the original scare EU National story was dismissed as having "no basis in reality". Well I did quote Reckless - who I agree is a total idiot - but he is/was an important influential UKIP member. It really depends on which reality for brexit we are supposed to understand?

Would UKIP and all their ideas be irrelevant under brexit then? You imply so, and yes, could well be. And further you suggest Labour and Cons could well rule the roost thereafter forever more. Again, quite likely.

You then have to look at where this really puts all the brexit promises on e.g. immigration. I can't see either the cons or labour ever messing with the 4 freedoms and interfering with free migration - at least any more that the cons are at the moment. This won't change. Indeed the government could choose to even do more now on e.g. work visas for EU migrants with a limit of 3 months, just like Switzerland - why don't they?

So you could argue that the proposal that "vote leave" will do anything at all about the levels of immigration "has no basis in reality" whatsoever! So what is voting leave about? Why is immigration even mentioned by vote leave if there is little prospect of it changing? Its mentioned to get certain demographics wound up to vote leave on a false pretense!












Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 28th May 08:33

CaptainSlow

13,179 posts

211 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
danllama said:
fk me this whole situation is infuriating mad

It's just bullst followed by more bullst. Can't they all just shut up until the referendum so people can fking think for themselves?

s.
People can't think for themselves, which is why the lies will be believed and the EU will steam ahead. Keep the populace scared is the raison d'etre.

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
My wife just had her postal vote through and it appeared to have a pro-remain pamphlet attached. It was a separate two sided leaflet addressed to her (so not a random leaflet drop) that appeared to be attached to the postal voting pack. I mean WTF?


FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
An interview with an ex Europhile. There is no need to be afraid of leaving the EU

Correct, there isn't.

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
Thought this was a good article, more on the nature of the distortion of government facts than the campaign itself.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/why-osbornes-do...

I would add to that various academic studies which reach "approved" conclusions and are then given high prominence in the media.

Spectator said:
This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
JagLover said:
My wife just had her postal vote through and it appeared to have a pro-remain pamphlet attached. It was a separate two sided leaflet addressed to her (so not a random leaflet drop) that appeared to be attached to the postal voting pack. I mean WTF?

On the other hand my voting card arrived yesterday along with a targeted/addressed Vote Leave pamphlet.

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Thought this was a good article, more on the nature of the distortion of government facts than the campaign itself.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/why-osbornes-do...

I would add to that various academic studies which reach "approved" conclusions and are then given high prominence in the media.

Spectator said:
This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.
Thanks for that link, it's well worth reading, yet in reality just touches the surface of the downright lies and dishonesty in this campaign. Cameron and Osborne should be made to pay for this.

The summing up sentence echoes what I have been saying, "Cameron has said that he wants to settle the European issue once and for all. He can only do that if he makes a fair and honest argument." He's failed on all counts.


anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Spectator said:
This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.
Given the fact that leave have been rapped for lying and use an incorrect figure as their headline you could apply that quote to both campaigns.

paulrockliffe

15,639 posts

226 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
JagLover said:
My wife just had her postal vote through and it appeared to have a pro-remain pamphlet attached. It was a separate two sided leaflet addressed to her (so not a random leaflet drop) that appeared to be attached to the postal voting pack. I mean WTF?

On the other hand my voting card arrived yesterday along with a targeted/addressed Vote Leave pamphlet.
I got both leaflets, actually two copies of the leave leaflet, but no postal vote. I suspect both have been posted to coincide with the postal vote rather then being attached to it as such.

Although I'm sure that's legal, I'd prefer it if it wasn't, it's not a very genuine way to campaign.

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
JagLover said:
Spectator said:
This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.
Given the fact that leave have been rapped for lying and use an incorrect figure as their headline you could apply that quote to both campaigns.
Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.
Hmm-I'm not sure of that. When you say we send the EU £350 million a week, put it on your campaign bus, send out leaflets with it on and continue to do so after you've been told multiple times it is wrong that seems like a pretty massive lie to me.

In other news the WTO chairman has pointed out some things
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YG1C8

In some respects these are statements of the obvious but still worth considering.
-161 nations in the WTO means negotiations will be slow as we'll have to negotiate as an entirely new member
-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
The false dichotomy: An independent Britain will not be isolationist or inward looking.

Leave Alliance reposting the words of Roland Smith said:
National independence also opens up fantastic opportunities to exert influence in Europe and beyond. With the ability to act and use our global vision and free trading instincts we can make Britain and the world a richer and happier place. As important as the Single Market in Europe is; there are far bigger and wider ranging benefits to pursuing a multilateral strategy for trade and helping to kick start the global trading system.   We need to help build the global marketplace that will facilitate international trade, raise industrial and commercial standards and help the global economy recover and flourish.

....

I object to the miserable caricature that the remainers depict; they don’t believe in this country and they are stunted by their little European mindset. We can help lead the way to a better Britan, Europe and beyond  by embracing this exciting globalised world.

That’s the Britain I believe in.
Also

How Norway was warned of economic catastrophe and is now happy prosperous and ingluential

The Market Solution

Brexit is a process not a single event. The Market Solution is the answer.

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
FiF said:
Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.
Hmm-I'm not sure of that. When you say we send the EU £350 million a week, put it on your campaign bus, send out leaflets with it on and continue to do so after you've been told multiple times it is wrong that seems like a pretty massive lie to me.

In other news the WTO chairman has pointed out some things
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YG1C8

In some respects these are statements of the obvious but still worth considering.
-161 nations in the WTO means negotiations will be slow as we'll have to negotiate as an entirely new member
-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries
Two things, if the campaign bus were printed with 150 million a week you could have no complaint, it's still a lot of money. If the bus were printed with the EU tells us how we can spend 250 million a week of our own money and only allowing us to spend 100 million a week on ourselves, again you could have no complaint. Note don't pick up on the exact figures, purposes of illustration only.

It annoys me too that Leave have gone with this 350 million figure as it's easy to knock down, and then in that smarmy way so often seen imply all the other claims are incorrect.

Of course that works both ways, Leave could point out all the blatant bare faced lies from Remain as demonstration of the paucity of the rest of their argument. The lies from Remain are out and out whoppers, including a Prime Minister lying to Parliament, he is worse than Blair. Actually the exposure odd the lies and rigging is working to discredit the wider Remain campaign which has lost total credibility though don't expect you to think that. So be it. Frankly no longer care what your fellow travellers think.

As for what the WTO says, that WTO option won't be the exit strategy in the event of a Leave vote, trust me on that, have explained often enough why it's not a sensible strategy, wouldn't get cross party support.

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
I got both leaflets, actually two copies of the leave leaflet, but no postal vote. I suspect both have been posted to coincide with the postal vote rather then being attached to it as such.

Although I'm sure that's legal, I'd prefer it if it wasn't, it's not a very genuine way to campaign.
Fair enough

Looks like I misinterpreted what was going on.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
cookie118 said:
FiF said:
Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.
Hmm-I'm not sure of that. When you say we send the EU £350 million a week, put it on your campaign bus, send out leaflets with it on and continue to do so after you've been told multiple times it is wrong that seems like a pretty massive lie to me.

In other news the WTO chairman has pointed out some things
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YG1C8

In some respects these are statements of the obvious but still worth considering.
-161 nations in the WTO means negotiations will be slow as we'll have to negotiate as an entirely new member
-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries
Two things, if the campaign bus were printed with 150 million a week you could have no complaint, it's still a lot of money. If the bus were printed with the EU tells us how we can spend 250 million a week of our own money and only allowing us to spend 100 million a week on ourselves, again you could have no complaint. Note don't pick up on the exact figures, purposes of illustration only.

It annoys me too that Leave have gone with this 350 million figure as it's easy to knock down, and then in that smarmy way so often seen imply all the other claims are incorrect.

Of course that works both ways, Leave could point out all the blatant bare faced lies from Remain as demonstration of the paucity of the rest of their argument. The lies from Remain are out and out whoppers, including a Prime Minister lying to Parliament, he is worse than Blair. Actually the exposure odd the lies and rigging is working to discredit the wider Remain campaign which has lost total credibility though don't expect you to think that. So be it. Frankly no longer care what your fellow travellers think.

As for what the WTO says, that WTO option won't be the exit strategy in the event of a Leave vote, trust me on that, have explained often enough why it's not a sensible strategy, wouldn't get cross party support.
I feel that after 40 years membership we should (ought to) know by now without doubt, that our membership of the EU has been, and is a good thing for the UK, but the reality seems to be, that as a nation we do not.
If it truly was such a good thing for the average UK citizen, we likely would not even be having, or need to have a referendum on whether we stay or leave. This alone sets off alarm bells regarding our continued membership, and study of what the EU has done in relation to the UK, over the years forces to me to vote for out. If I could know for certain that the EU `has' been a good thing for the UK, I would be amongst the first to vote to remain, but I have no such confidence that it has, and the remain campaign has even now not been able to come up with sound/solid reasons why the UK should remain in the EU. certainly no more or less than the leave group has been able to come up with reasons why we should leave, So in my case it must be a personal decision based on what I have learned about the, EU and the way it operates.

///ajd

8,964 posts

205 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
cookie118 said:
JagLover said:
Spectator said:
This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.
Given the fact that leave have been rapped for lying and use an incorrect figure as their headline you could apply that quote to both campaigns.
Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.
I don't the think the evidence backs that up. Lets look at two :

£350 is a current readily verifiable fact. Its a lie, though the real name number is still big. The real deception however it s in saying you can actually spend the money on the NHS etc. This is ignores the price of single market access, CAP payments to etc. And its been shown if you kiss off the single market the tariffs could dwarf the savings. The economics are just dishonest - the outcomes promised just are unrealistic.

£4200 better off has been logically explained as related the the GDP impact on brexit. This is a future assumption but there is reasonable opinion that 2-5% impact on GDP is a real possibility. The £4200 is a top end estimate, and perhaps a more balanced view shouod have been declared, but it is a possible outcome. It is not just fantasy wishful thinking, though the uncertainty and relationship between tax take and GDP does need carefully explaining.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 28th May 2016
quotequote all
I was going to vote out but I am now scared that if we leave I may end up facing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zoSCn0XR1I

The Angel Of Death