The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[///ajd]

Further thoughts on the Junker comments on Austria....FPO far right party etc.#

It turns out the FPO party have been in coalition before - around 15 years ago. The EU took sanctions against them then, apparently, for being right wing. Not really sure how they justified this.

They were known to be a bit controversial.

"A previous leader Haider - proposed in parliament to require able-bodied welfare recipients to accept public service work assignments. Following this proposal, an SPÖ delegate shouted that the proposal was akin to the forced labour of the Third Reich, which led Haider to retort; "at least in the Third Reich there was a decent employment policy, which is more than can be said for what your government in Vienna can manage."

The FPO have said they will leave the EU if Turkey joins. Now this is interesting, as they apparently fall short of saying they will leave the EU anyway, but only if X happens. Sounds a bit SNP-like to me - all threats and no trousers etc. - just lusting after power.

The results of the election make sobering reading!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_presidentia...

[danllama]

MikeT66 said:

I'm still undecided, really - mainly due to ps-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

I am lost for words. How the fk did we come to a point where this is OK??

Imagine a black youth where the white man is, pointing at an old white lady? Would it be allowed?

Just fk off.

[alfie2244]

danllama said:

MikeT66 said:

I'm still undecided, really - mainly due to ps-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

I am lost for words. How the fk did we come to a point where this is OK??

Imagine a black youth where the white man is, pointing at an old white lady? Would it be allowed?

Just fk off.

With the heading Operation White Vote.

[Police State]

turbobloke said:

Ayahuasca said:

It is depressing how many UK citizens think so little of their country that they would prefer the EU to run it.

It certainly is, and it's inevitable according to the polls that they will get their way.

You have to bear in mind that a generation, or two have been constantly bombarded with all manner of messages and tactics with the clear aim of making them only have that kind of reaction when they think about 'their country'. In many cases, it's almost Pavlovian...

Against that backdrop, for many it has been nothing more than a shameful state of being, to be expunged; nothing less will do. For others, it has been nothing more than a business opportunity.

[mondeoman]

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

[s2art]

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

To be fair I think Farage and Boris are using this group for their economic case.

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

[///ajd]

s2art said:

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

To be fair I think Farage and Boris are using this group for their economic case.

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

Shhh! Don't bring up dear Professor Minford again.

[mondeoman]

s2art said:

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

To be fair I think Farage and Boris are using this group for their economic case.

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

But where are the retaliatory statements? Leave's comment on the IFS report today on 2 years additional austerity: "its rubbish and paid for by the EU". That was it. No counterpoint, just a dismissal.

That really doesn't work for me.

[Einion Yrth]

mondeoman said:

But where are the retaliatory statements? Leave's comment on the IFS report today on 2 years additional austerity: "its rubbish and paid for by the EU". That was it. No counterpoint, just a dismissal.

That really doesn't work for me.

The onus is on the party claiming other than the null hypothesis (in this case "nothing much will change") to make their case. Does the IFS case satisfy you? If yes you may choose to vote in, in no case however does anyone have a requirement to refute a claimed position.

[don4l]

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

I have no idea why you think a Brexit would involve an economic hit.

What makes you think that there would be negative economic impacts?

[s2art]

///ajd said:

s2art said:

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

To be fair I think Farage and Boris are using this group for their economic case.

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

Shhh! Don't bring up dear Professor Minford again.

Its not just Minford though http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/about-us/

Respected economists all.

[s2art]

don4l said:

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

I have no idea why you think a Brexit would involve an economic hit.

What makes you think that there would be negative economic impacts?

There will probably be a short glitch until things settle down again. But as Stuart Rose said nothing much changes initially.

[gothatway]

Many of the most reasonable voices I have heard from those who want Out have been female - Julia Hartley-Brewer, Kate Hoey, Andrea Leadsom for example. There's another one, an economist, whose name escapes me at the moment - and doubtless many many more. Surely mobilising them would have huge benefit for the out campaign. Not just because they are less bombastic than the male of the species, but they would probably have a significant and disproportionate impact on the voting intention of other women (or is that a terribly sexist thing to think ?). Oh and they would show up Harriet Harmon for being a total waste of protein.

[mondeoman]

don4l said:

mondeoman said:

I'm for out, but I'm getting tired of Farge and Boris simply saying that anything economic that isn't positive for brexit is "rubbish", "biased", "paid for propaganda" .

There will be an economic hit, be foolish to think otherwise, but they should be coming back with stronger stuff and data to back up their statements.

Its putting me off a bit tbh, and I can only imagine that for the floating voters they are starting to look a bit foolish. Shame really, if we stay in because the politicians couldn't put together a cohesive, intelligent argument for "out".

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

I have no idea why you think a Brexit would involve an economic hit.

What makes you think that there would be negative economic impacts?

Some multinationals will relocate, interest rates will be impacted, exchange rates will be volatile, Government will be in flux. Of course there will be a hit. Why wouldn't there be, in the real world, not the land of make believe?

[gothatway]

mondeoman said:

Some multinationals will relocate, interest rates will be impacted, exchange rates will be volatile, Government will be in flux.

... whether we leave or not.

[anonymous-user]

don4l said:

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

Hmm-that's not what the surveys say

https://www.zurich.co.uk/en/about-us/media-centre/...
39% back leaving.

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-...
Only 17% back leaving.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/25/eu-referendum...
42% back leaving

http://downtowninbusiness.com/smes-split-brexit/
A majority for leave! 51% want to leave 49% stay-hardly 'overwhelming' though

http://smeforgrowth.co.uk/index.php/2016/03/10/bre...
Normal service resumed-35% back leave, 44% stay.

http://www.fsb.org.uk/LegacySitePath/policy/assets...
40.9% leave, 47% remain

[///ajd]

cookie118 said:

don4l said:

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

Hmm-that's not what the surveys say

https://www.zurich.co.uk/en/about-us/media-centre/...
39% back leaving.

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-...
Only 17% back leaving.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/25/eu-referendum...
42% back leaving

http://downtowninbusiness.com/smes-split-brexit/
A majority for leave! 51% want to leave 49% stay-hardly 'overwhelming' though

http://smeforgrowth.co.uk/index.php/2016/03/10/bre...
Normal service resumed-35% back leave, 44% stay.

http://www.fsb.org.uk/LegacySitePath/policy/assets...
40.9% leave, 47% remain

Indeed, I also read one report - that was actually being pushed by brexiters for some other stats - that confirmed that the vast majority of SMEs saw immigration as a positive benefit for their business. It could be argued these SMEs would not therefore want the 4 freedoms removed.

[chris watton]

I think it's best to treat any 'study' surrounding this referendum with a huge stockpile of salt. So much complete st has been spouted, it is now nigh on impossible to sift truth from fiction.

I am voting for what I believe is best, and not by what endless dodgy 'studies' say.

[wc98]

zbc said:

The difficulty is though that one of the common behaviours of extreme parties is to limit freedom of speech. Look at the recent actions of the Polish and Hungarian governments. What should the EU do in this case? Ignore the abuse of free speech and restriction of diplomacy by media manipulation or rather use whatever limited powers they may have to try to ensure a certain level of freedoms?

therein lies the dichotomy , the problem for me is that today i would expect the polish and hungarian people to sort it out at the ballot box .
eu interference is fine for most in this situation i imagine, right up until the point it is the subject of their own particular vote in their own country that becomes the target.

[markh1973]

///ajd said:

cookie118 said:

don4l said:

SME owners, who are responsible for over 63% of jobs in the UK, are overwhemlingly in favour of Brexit.

Hmm-that's not what the surveys say

https://www.zurich.co.uk/en/about-us/media-centre/...
39% back leaving.

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-...
Only 17% back leaving.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/25/eu-referendum...
42% back leaving

http://downtowninbusiness.com/smes-split-brexit/
A majority for leave! 51% want to leave 49% stay-hardly 'overwhelming' though

http://smeforgrowth.co.uk/index.php/2016/03/10/bre...
Normal service resumed-35% back leave, 44% stay.

http://www.fsb.org.uk/LegacySitePath/policy/assets...
40.9% leave, 47% remain

Indeed, I also read one report - that was actually being pushed by brexiters for some other stats - that confirmed that the vast majority of SMEs saw immigration as a positive benefit for their business. It could be argued these SMEs would not therefore want the 4 freedoms removed.

Even if Don4l's 63% is correct that isn't a counter to the fact there is likely to be an economic hit, of what size and for how long no-one can accurately predict.