The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
steveatesh said:
FiF said:
Well at least some people are beginning to get the pragmatic sense behind the Leave Alliance message.
Brexit will make us richer
Good link, I doubt very much Vote Leave will adopt this route though, they have proven disastrous as a campaigning group. Brexit will make us richer
chow pan toon said:
They've been an absolute shambles. I'm pretty much decided to vote out from my earlier indecision but Vote Leave has done very little to help me along. I would say that the main influences have been positive, thought-provoking articles like that linked and the incessant stream of ever more extreme and ever less believable scare stories from David Cameron and co.
I too was undecided but thanks to Dave and his mates I am voting out everytime I hear him talk I can hear people cringe I think he is toast whatever the result.chow pan toon said:
steveatesh said:
FiF said:
Well at least some people are beginning to get the pragmatic sense behind the Leave Alliance message.
Brexit will make us richer
Good link, I doubt very much Vote Leave will adopt this route though, they have proven disastrous as a campaigning group. Brexit will make us richer
jjlynn27 said:
Mr_B said:
Take a calm look at both threads and where you come in. In both it was me asking if that was really the case and debating the points and open to listening. You turn up in both and say it is falt-out not the case. In the German migrant thread you may remember the point in case was did the initial positive response then translate in to what was talk of a million plus migrants coming in a very short space of time that was months.
I said I doubted it and those that posted polling saying this seemed to back that up. You took 4 people on PH telling you the early scenes of arriving migrants as positive as translating that it meant any number was being positively received. The actual evidence posted to the thread by some of those you actually relied on said not. Most pompously of all, you declared it "settled" and beyond argument now.
You brought up 'unanimous' and Germany refugees. That you can think that anyone can argue that the whole country, 80+ mil people with such diverse views can be 'unanimous' on anything, is, to a normal person at least, laughable. Hence you are laughed at. When you are proven wrong, you do what all thickos / liars do. As before, entertaining to watch, even for a bit. I said I doubted it and those that posted polling saying this seemed to back that up. You took 4 people on PH telling you the early scenes of arriving migrants as positive as translating that it meant any number was being positively received. The actual evidence posted to the thread by some of those you actually relied on said not. Most pompously of all, you declared it "settled" and beyond argument now.
Mr_B said:
Now fast forward to penny Mordaunt's comments and again I make a point asking if it really is a clear cut as portrayed, while being open to the fact it may not be. Enter you and another declaration it is again beyond argument. When asking if that's the case you display your normal anger at anyone not blindly willing to accept you word on it, most amusingly manifesting itself with your Ukip tourettes. I still have no idea why you mention them. Does anyone ?
We then get to you wanting to argue the toss over Cameron and his pro Turkish accession to the EU... to which you promptly say nothing at all even though it was at the heart of the matter about the effect it would have being in or out the EU.
What she was answering to is, once again, as you need things repeated to you multiple times in order to get them, if ever, is clear to anyone but you. And once again, you are trying, and failing, to construct a scenario where random brexiter appears less dim, or to excuse an obvious lie. We then get to you wanting to argue the toss over Cameron and his pro Turkish accession to the EU... to which you promptly say nothing at all even though it was at the heart of the matter about the effect it would have being in or out the EU.
Another day another lie. I did say that what Cameron thinks/says is irrelevant to this paritcular discussion, as he can be democratically elected/removed from his post. You quoted me saying that. So now saying that I said nothing at all is another obvious lie. You just can't help yourself.
Mr_B said:
I can't tell what you've done with your posts, you either edited them or deleted one. I don't have screen grabs either way, so no, I can't prove it.
Bottom line, do try to not just turn up on a thread and decree something and get angry when others don't see it as you desperately want to.
The thing with liars, like yourself, is that they are not particularly bright, and that they try to cover previous lie with the new one. Bottom line, do try to not just turn up on a thread and decree something and get angry when others don't see it as you desperately want to.
I couldn't delete the post, as you made quite clear reference to which post you were referring to. That post is still there for everyone to see. Once again, there is a time stamp for last edit, that's impossible to 'fake' and you did quote that entire post as it still stands.
So, no I didn't delete or edited post in a way suggested and/or after your reply. You are lying again. You brought that 'editing' up as a proof how 'honest' I am.
I invite any mod, if they care, to confirm that time stamp of the last edit can't be edited/removed/faked. It's that simple.
In both cases and fair minded PH reader would see me ask for evidence and accepting I could be wrong but having a say on what I feel is correct.
It was you with your high standard of evidence of being told something by 4 people on PH that was slightly related, and then holding it up as evidence and declaring it "settled".
It really does go to the heart of the matter with your pro EU gibberish that you have a desperation to want to just declare something "settled" and then beyond argument. There's a real arrogance to that, but then, it doesn't seem to bother you you aren't open to listening to anyone else, so sure of yourself that its you who is right and anyone disagreeing is thick. How very EU in a way.
Your post at 11.27 yesterday contained nothing about the subject matter of Mordaunt or Cameron on the EU , it was a rambling defence of yourself and your deluded comments and claim that a majority in Germany at the time were pro millions of refugees when those you were actually reliant on were posting posting opinion polls say this wasn't so.
Again, you get so worked up and touchy when people don't take your delectation of something. It's not a healthy complex to have.
Esseesse said:
chow pan toon said:
steveatesh said:
FiF said:
Well at least some people are beginning to get the pragmatic sense behind the Leave Alliance message.
Brexit will make us richer
Good link, I doubt very much Vote Leave will adopt this route though, they have proven disastrous as a campaigning group. Brexit will make us richer
Mrr T said:
Esseesse said:
chow pan toon said:
steveatesh said:
FiF said:
Well at least some people are beginning to get the pragmatic sense behind the Leave Alliance message.
Brexit will make us richer
Good link, I doubt very much Vote Leave will adopt this route though, they have proven disastrous as a campaigning group. Brexit will make us richer
The rules on Eurostar and Ferry positions of Immigration are by way of a bi-lateral treaty between the UK & France. Specifically the Channel Tunnel Act 1987 and the Treaty of Le Touquet (2003) for Ferries.
There are further orders and agreements with the EU regarding immigration controls on the Channel Tunnel but as far as I can work out the actual positioning of them is a direct treaty between the UK & France (and a further one between France, Belgium and UK) rather than an EU agreement.
Obviously there may be clauses in those treaties rendering them null and void in the event of EU exit but on the face of it Blunkett is talking rubbish.
There are further orders and agreements with the EU regarding immigration controls on the Channel Tunnel but as far as I can work out the actual positioning of them is a direct treaty between the UK & France (and a further one between France, Belgium and UK) rather than an EU agreement.
Obviously there may be clauses in those treaties rendering them null and void in the event of EU exit but on the face of it Blunkett is talking rubbish.
Esseesse said:
Mrr T said:
Esseesse said:
chow pan toon said:
steveatesh said:
FiF said:
Well at least some people are beginning to get the pragmatic sense behind the Leave Alliance message.
Brexit will make us richer
Good link, I doubt very much Vote Leave will adopt this route though, they have proven disastrous as a campaigning group. Brexit will make us richer
You do also realise it not just holiday makers who would be effected but the ferries and train are vital links for trade with the EU.
Mrr T said:
I agree the problem does not exist at airports. Have you noticed the other difference at an airport people walk on to the plane at a ferry or the train the cars and lorries drive on. Giving irregular immigrants some where to hide. As for the Belgium and Dutch accepting immigrants without papers you are joking?
You do also realise it not just holiday makers who would be effected but the ferries and train are vital links for trade with the EU.
Airlines are charged £10K for each illegal migrant they bring in. If Ferry companies were charged the same it would be worth their while to make sure none board their ferries.You do also realise it not just holiday makers who would be effected but the ferries and train are vital links for trade with the EU.
In the real world the control over numbers is not over who is genuinely entitled to asylum but who can set foot in the country.
CrutyRammers said:
zbc said:
So when Corbyn gets elected and decides to close the Telegraph and Mail and nationalise all the TV channels allowing them only to show his speeches or Romanian folk dances you will be happy about that and not want someone else to encourage them not to do that.
As I said on the other thread, you're proposing an unelected, unacountable institution which has a habit of ignoring its own laws and procedures to oversee an elected one. Elections and limited parliaments are the best defence thus found against tyranny. Otherwise, who watches the watchmen? It must be down to the people ultimately.Germany was a democracy before that.
Mrr T said:
I agree the problem does not exist at airports. Have you noticed the other difference at an airport people walk on to the plane at a ferry or the train the cars and lorries drive on. Giving irregular immigrants some where to hide. As for the Belgium and Dutch accepting immigrants without papers you are joking?
You do also realise it not just holiday makers who would be effected but the ferries and train are vital links for trade with the EU.
Our borders are in France so that our Customs Officers can work in France searching wagons, buses, cars and trains and also checking passports. I would suggest that these searching duties and passport checking duties can be just as successfully carried out by companies in France, rather than the Border Force, thus enabling our Customs officers to move back to Dover. Passports would once again be checked again at Dover much as they are at airports now. You do also realise it not just holiday makers who would be effected but the ferries and train are vital links for trade with the EU.
Searching duties ( apart from Man Utd toilets) can easily be delegated to specialist providers. The drugs and human smelling dogs I presume dont know or care if he border force or a private company is providing their pedigree chum.
As it happens I am well aware of how important the ferries and trains are given that my business is based on importing products from Europe, as I have mentioned previously, and I have at least two deliveries per month coming through Dover. I go through there myself about once a month.
Whether the lorry is searched by Border Force or GS4, or Serco or " Immigrants R U " makes no difference whatsoever to the flow of traffic. Indeed fining ferry companies similar to Airlines as suggested for "stowaways" would probably help the whole situation.
Moreover the fact that the wagons would be searched more thoroughly would mean that I may even be able to relax a bit and not worry about the chances of the load having to be dumped because some unwelcome " guests" has shat and pissed everywhere thus rendering the shipment a total loss and adding extra costs and problems onto my business.
Indeed if we could be sure that the search providers wouldn't be creative in their business I may even go as far as suggesting that we pay a bounty to the search teams for each illegal immigrant found.
Thus, in my view, by taking the borders back to the UK we would actually icrease the layers of security and its effectiveness.
Costs may increase but hey we will have £350m per week to pay for it all ( yes I am being flippant...a bit....say its £8 billion per year.).
Cheers,
Tony
MikeT66 said:
hidetheelephants said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
danllama said:
MikeT66 said:
I'm still undecided, really - mainly due to p
s-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
I am lost for words. How the fs-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
k did we come to a point where this is OK??Imagine a black youth where the white man is, pointing at an old white lady? Would it be allowed?
Just f
k off.If you don't agree with the post, fair enough. But your consistent attitude is way over the top. Hope you are a nicer individual in real life.
oyster said:
CrutyRammers said:
zbc said:
So when Corbyn gets elected and decides to close the Telegraph and Mail and nationalise all the TV channels allowing them only to show his speeches or Romanian folk dances you will be happy about that and not want someone else to encourage them not to do that.
As I said on the other thread, you're proposing an unelected, unacountable institution which has a habit of ignoring its own laws and procedures to oversee an elected one. Elections and limited parliaments are the best defence thus found against tyranny. Otherwise, who watches the watchmen? It must be down to the people ultimately.Germany was a democracy before that.
a) The best way to prevent that happening is to have an unacountable body overseeing everyone. What happens when that body goes rogue as the Nazi party did?
b) That the EU or similar could have prevented the Nazis from doing what they did?
danllama said:
MikeT66 said:
hidetheelephants said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
danllama said:
MikeT66 said:
I'm still undecided, really - mainly due to ps-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
I am lost for words. How the fs-poor genuine information from both sides - but this campaign is quite frankly disgraceful...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
k did we come to a point where this is OK??Imagine a black youth where the white man is, pointing at an old white lady? Would it be allowed?
Just f
k off.If you don't agree with the post, fair enough. But your consistent attitude is way over the top. Hope you are a nicer individual in real life.
Not quite the same as the wikipedia poll tracker that shows the race tightening with leave catching up (but probably not enough), the BBC poll tracker basically shows nothing has changed in 6 months except the undecideds have reduced a tiny tiny amount and been split equally between in/out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
Reading a bit about pollster predictions. They blame their lack of predicting the last Tory GE win on 'shy Tories'. Apparently they were meant to have learned this lesson in 1992, but had forgotten it.
I assume the 'shy Tory' phenomenon comes from it basically being more PC to be a left wing luvvie than a conservative. It seems to be clear to me that the luvvies support remain, and it's unPC to be a leaver. Could there be a shy factor in the polls? Is it less fashionable to be a Tory voter or a Leave voter?
I assume the 'shy Tory' phenomenon comes from it basically being more PC to be a left wing luvvie than a conservative. It seems to be clear to me that the luvvies support remain, and it's unPC to be a leaver. Could there be a shy factor in the polls? Is it less fashionable to be a Tory voter or a Leave voter?
Why do online polls put leave a little ahead and phone polls put remain significantly ahead?
I would expect the opposite result, as phoning would have more 'old' weighting. Also I notice on Facebook that leave posts have comments left by leavers as you would expect, however remain posts posted by genuine remain campaigns also have comments overwhelmingly from angry leavers. Why is this?
I would expect the opposite result, as phoning would have more 'old' weighting. Also I notice on Facebook that leave posts have comments left by leavers as you would expect, however remain posts posted by genuine remain campaigns also have comments overwhelmingly from angry leavers. Why is this?
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