The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[FiF]

Murph7355 said:

FiF said:

That is something that struck me with the recent Austrian vote and comparison with the EU elections in 2014.

If you look back to 2014 there was much discussion about the rise of Eurosceptic parties across the EU. UKIP in UK, National Front in France and so on. When the results were in it was clear that in some nations Eurosceptic parties had lost ground, obviously the new accession nations, Poland and generally those nations who were significant net recipients. Amongst these nations where Eurosceptic parties lost ground was Austria.

Now compare that with the recent Austrian election. Not strictly a fair and direct comparison possibly, but indicative of a shift in opinion.

I still think that the EU is dead, but just doesn't realise it yet. At least in current makeup. How long that will take to change is unknown.

I'm not sure basic electoral results are a safe barometer.

As an example, if you took the UK you could be forgiven that UKIP was no further ahead in its aims in the last election, and yet it took 4x the amount of votes it had previously (and arguably forced one of the main parties to make a key manifesto pledge).

Looking at the two parties you note (and looking at wiki which is always a little dangerous)...

French NF:
- recovered lost ground massively between 2007 and 2012 (no later figures), more than trebling their vote.
- getting on for doubled their vote in the presidential election across the same period
- weren't a millions miles off trebling their vote in regional council elections between 2010 and 2015. This one is potentially more of a barometer as it's a recent jump and perhaps more suggestive of what people on the street are thinking?

Austrian FPO:
- 12% increase between 2008 and 2013 in National Council votes
- despite ultimately losing the presidential vote, they took a huge amount in pure numbers (60% more than the Greens who ultimately won in the first round of voting...)

I'm not sure any of this suggests that the electorates in these countries are moving away from Eurosceptic parties. Quite the opposite potentially.

I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, but it would be interesting to see the similar figures for the other net contributing countries in the EU.

I'm sorry but I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

In short, in the European elections there was a swing in some nations towards Eurosceptic parties, and prior to the election examples of these were used to argue that Euroscepticism was increasing across the EU. Once results declared in some nations there was a swing against and Eurosceptics lost ground or took a very small share of the vote. Austria was one of those countries where the Eurosceptic lost ground from previous result. Now in the presidential election there was a massive increase in the Eurosceptic vote. Which to my mind suggests that there may be increasing anti EU feeling, possibly driven by events. How much that is replicated I other nations is unknown.

How you construe that to thinking I'm suggesting a swing away from Euroscepticism you will have to explain.

It would be interesting to see the position now as clearly there has been a massive shift in Austria. Is there a split between net contributors and net recipients? Suspect it will be more complicated than that.

[loafer123]

As far as I can see, you are both saying the same thing.

[don4l]

BJG1 said:

don4l said:

It makes me wonder why you bothered fighting in the second world war.

Yeah, I too can't see any difference between Hitler and Merkel...

You are a fking idiot and grossly disrespectful to those who lost their lives fighting fascism.

I didn't mention Hitler or fascism.

You did.

If you want to disagree with me, then please disagree with things that I actually said.

Calling me an idiot because of things that I didn't say is a bit... err... stupid.

Why would you do this on a public forum?

I must admit that I am constantly surprised by the levels of stupidity that are displayed on the Internet.

[rs1952]

FiF said:

I'm sorry but I think you've misunderstood what I was saying.

In short, in the European elections there was a swing in some nations towards Eurosceptic parties, and prior to the election examples of these were used to argue that Euroscepticism was increasing across the EU. Once results declared in some nations there was a swing against and Eurosceptics lost ground or took a very small share of the vote. Austria was one of those countries where the Eurosceptic lost ground from previous result. Now in the presidential election there was a massive increase in the Eurosceptic vote. Which to my mind suggests that there may be increasing anti EU feeling, possibly driven by events. How much that is replicated I other nations is unknown.

How you construe that to thinking I'm suggesting a swing away from Euroscepticism you will have to explain.

It would be interesting to see the position now as clearly there has been a massive shift in Austria. Is there a split between net contributors and net recipients? Suspect it will be more complicated than that.

Another factor which may be just as important may also be involved - the disenchantment with mainstream party politicians is hardly a phenomenon that is seen only in the UK.

As I understand it (happy to be corrected) the position of president of Austria is largely titular. Perhaps the Austrian population therefore thinks that it doesn't really matter in real politics, and gives them the opportunity to indulge in a little arse-kicking of the mainstream parties.

[///ajd]

don4l said:

BJG1 said:

don4l said:

It makes me wonder why you bothered fighting in the second world war.

Yeah, I too can't see any difference between Hitler and Merkel...

You are a fking idiot and grossly disrespectful to those who lost their lives fighting fascism.

I didn't mention Hitler or fascism.

You did.

If you want to disagree with me, then please disagree with things that I actually said.

Calling me an idiot because of things that I didn't say is a bit... err... stupid.

Why would you do this on a public forum?

I must admit that I am constantly surprised by the levels of stupidity that are displayed on the Internet.

You did make reference to the "fourth reich" Don, and mentioned Merkel. Most readers would assume you were drawing parallels to the rather famous "third" one, which most people appear to remember was led by Hitler, who many people are also associate with facism.

Your reference to those who fought Hitler having wasting their time was assumed to mean that you do actually think Merkel is a kind of second coming of Hitler - with it seems a fourth reich.

Perhaps you can explain why you mentioned a fourth reich and why the defeat of the third one should now be considered a waste of time in the context of the EU?

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

don4l said:

BJG1 said:

don4l said:

It makes me wonder why you bothered fighting in the second world war.

Yeah, I too can't see any difference between Hitler and Merkel...

You are a fking idiot and grossly disrespectful to those who lost their lives fighting fascism.

I didn't mention Hitler or fascism.

You did.

If you want to disagree with me, then please disagree with things that I actually said.

Calling me an idiot because of things that I didn't say is a bit... err... stupid.

Why would you do this on a public forum?

I must admit that I am constantly surprised by the levels of stupidity that are displayed on the Internet.

You did make reference to the "fourth reich" Don, and mentioned Merkel. Most readers would assume you were drawing parallels to the rather famous "third" one, which most people appear to remember was led by Hitler, who many people are also associate with facism.

Your reference to those who fought Hitler having wasting their time was assumed to mean that you do actually think Merkel is a kind of second coming of Hitler - with it seems a fourth reich.

Perhaps you can explain why you mentioned a fourth reich and why the defeat of the third one should now be considered a waste of time in the context of the EU?

That mention ^ about an even earlier mention of the fourth reich, prompted thoughts around whether other sources had entertained such phraseology - and they have, including one in Germany.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german...

[///ajd]

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

So one of the leave campaign's lies is bigger than the remain campaign's lies.

They're all liars, surprise, surprise. Don't listen to any of them; look at what the EU has done and what it's stated aims are and then decide which way to vote.

In all honesty, I can see only one outcome if we all do just that, short term vested interests aside.

[Sway]

cookie118 said:

Sam All said:

Isn't there select committee that can admonish for this pathetic practice.

Both sides have been told off for their figures today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

My MP is great. Pity he's not campaigning.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest

That's quite big...

[Mr_B]

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

Did you catch Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics today shredding a man fronting the so much praised 350 economists letter warning of Brexit ?
Today's outright scare story is the forced deportations of legal EU nationals and another economic report on pensioners this time being hundreds of pounds worse of with their pensions. Both utterly fabricated nonsense to outright bullst with no basis on reality.
The £350m figure is one I think isn't correct and is an example of both sides taking a figure ( ONS in this case ) and trumpeting it. Out of interest, what figure to your mind is the fair one to replace that on their battle bus ?

Edited to 'isn't' after a gross typo

Edited by Mr_B on Friday 27th May 21:03

[EddieSteadyGo]

Sway said:

cookie118 said:

Sam All said:

Isn't there select committee that can admonish for this pathetic practice.

Both sides have been told off for their figures today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

My MP is great. Pity he's not campaigning.

Think you will find he isn't welcome as far as Dominic Cummings, the Leave campaign director is concerned.

As we know, Andrew Tyrie's committee have pointed out the obvious issues with the claim that "we send £350m per week to the EU". His committee also pointed out issues with the Remain campaign.

However, Dominic seems to take the criticism personally, just tweeting this;

"Tyrie supported the ERM and scrapping the pound. Pompous and dishonest re his cmte. He should play 50million.uk to improve his knowledge"

I don't know if his claim that Tyrie did support the ERM and the scrapping of the pound (the last claim I find unlikely). But calling him pompous and dishonest surely is the pot calling the kettle black.

[wiggy001]

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

Sorry but I'm sick of hearing that the £350m figure is a lie when it is not. Our "fee" for being in the EU IS £350m per week. The fact we get some of this back is irrelevant as we have no control over how much we get back or how it is spent.

To use an analogy for the hard of thinking: how much income tax do you pay? Is it 20/40% of your salary or is it 20/40% of your salary minus the benefit you get for your local library, hospital and lesbian outreach centre, even though you have no say over how that "benefit" is spent? How much is your council tax? Is it £180 a month or is it £180 per month minus the cost of maintaining your streetlights, playing fields and collecting your rubbish?

No one uses the net figure for income tax, so why use it for the EU tax?

[Cobnapint]

Mr_B said:

Did you catch Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics today shredding a man fronting the so much praised 350 economists letter warning of Brexit ?

He was like a hypnotised remain zombie that couldn't stop spouting sh*te.

Neil could have destroyed him completely if he'd wanted to, but I think he felt sorry for him in the end.

[///ajd]

Mr_B said:

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

Today's outright scare story is the forced deportations of legal EU nationals ... utterly fabricated nonsense to outright bullst with no basis on reality.

Yep, no one on the brexit side would threaten to deport EU nationals.

"European Union (EU) migrants should be deported from Britain "after a fixed period" if the UK leaves the economic and political union, Mark Reckless, the UKIP candidate for the Rochester and Strood has suggested. Some migrants could be forced to leave the country after a UK exit from the EU."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukips-mark-reckless-eu-mi...

[jjlynn27]

Mr_B said:

I see the nervous twitch of your Ukip Tourette's is back again when angry. You do like to try and taint anyone who disagrees with you using that. As I said, I don't keep screen grabs of PH so have no idea what you did. Maybe others will wonder if you are honest with your edits as they stand.

..(more usual junk)...

They can wonder if they are as thick as you are. I'll let you play spot the difference. You can repeat your lie as much as you like it'll still be a lie.

My post:

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

You are deaf then. She answers after and says "no it doesn't" only after Marr saying "it doesn't have to left them join". You hear what you want to hear, as per when 4 people on PH told you a million plus migrants coming to Germany was of no real concern and declared it "settled".
As I said, at best its unclear and I concede she may well be saying that. You are just on edge to hear what you want to and take it as a given.

Not deaf, and not unclear at all. To anyone but you. Once again, she starts to answer even before his 'add-on'. Rest of the interview confirms that she meant what was reported. Two outfits made it quite clear what was the answer to, as if you needed it after seeing the video. The simple explanation is that you are so blinkered by your hatred of EU that you'll clutch any passing straws. Or it could be part of some MSM (BBC and Indy) conspiracy to make brexiters look stupid.

Mr_B said:

When you have a politician like Dave who is in denial of his own clear statements and plays down what he said when he needs to, don't be too surprised if the trust in him quickly goes out the window. You cant be saying how angered you are Turkey isn't being allowed to join the EU and how passionate you are to be their biggest champion to join one minute, then say no chance the next.
Guess what ? On a remain vote some people think he'll turn again and would vote them in. Leave the EU and you can simply trade with them and select who you don't mind coming to visit or work in the UK at you pleasure.

For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'.

Edited by jjlynn27 on Monday 23 May 15:18

Your reply quoting my post [posted after timestamp of my last edit];

Mr_B said:

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

You are deaf then. She answers after and says "no it doesn't" only after Marr saying "it doesn't have to left them join". You hear what you want to hear, as per when 4 people on PH told you a million plus migrants coming to Germany was of no real concern and declared it "settled".
As I said, at best its unclear and I concede she may well be saying that. You are just on edge to hear what you want to and take it as a given.

Not deaf, and not unclear at all. To anyone but you. Once again, she starts to answer even before his 'add-on'. Rest of the interview confirms that she meant what was reported. Two outfits made it quite clear what was the answer to, as if you needed it after seeing the video. The simple explanation is that you are so blinkered by your hatred of EU that you'll clutch any passing straws. Or it could be part of some MSM (BBC and Indy) conspiracy to make brexiters look stupid.

Mr_B said:

When you have a politician like Dave who is in denial of his own clear statements and plays down what he said when he needs to, don't be too surprised if the trust in him quickly goes out the window. You cant be saying how angered you are Turkey isn't being allowed to join the EU and how passionate you are to be their biggest champion to join one minute, then say no chance the next.
Guess what ? On a remain vote some people think he'll turn again and would vote them in. Leave the EU and you can simply trade with them and select who you don't mind coming to visit or work in the UK at you pleasure.

For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'.

... (reply to post) ...

It's technically impossible for your claim (edit/delete), to be anything but lie.


No need for screen grabs. Quoting works perfectly well, and last edit timestamp is impossible to fake/delete. Keep digging, liar.

Both posts are still there.


edited to fix quoting (see?)

Edited by jjlynn27 on Friday 27th May 21:23

[Einion Yrth]

Perhaps you two should get a room, because frankly your personalised arguing is, at least to my mind, bloody boring.

[EddieSteadyGo]

wiggy001 said:

///ajd said:

Both campaigns rapped for telling porkies, but "voteleave" porkies are the biggest:

"the committee chairman, Tory MP Andrew Tyrie, said Vote Leave were guilty of "by far the most serious" offence.

He called on them to repaint their battle bus, which has been touring the country with Boris Johnson and carries the slogan: "We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead."

"That is simply untrue, it is highly misleading and it is deeply troubling that they should be persisting with this," Mr Tyrie told BBC Radio 4's The World at One."

Sorry but I'm sick of hearing that the £350m figure is a lie when it is not. Our "fee" for being in the EU IS £350m per week. The fact we get some of this back is irrelevant as we have no control over how much we get back or how it is spent.

To use an analogy for the hard of thinking: how much income tax do you pay? Is it 20/40% of your salary or is it 20/40% of your salary minus the benefit you get for your local library, hospital and lesbian outreach centre, even though you have no say over how that "benefit" is spent? How much is your council tax? Is it £180 a month or is it £180 per month minus the cost of maintaining your streetlights, playing fields and collecting your rubbish?

No one uses the net figure for income tax, so why use it for the EU tax?

I'm afraid your wrong on this one wiggy001.

The claim the Leave campaign make is that "we send £350m per week". That is not correct.

The rebate is deducted from the £350m before it is sent to the EU. So the £350m never leaves 'our' account. The correct figure we do send is about £250m. Still very big, but not £350m

Yes, if you put aside the rebate, some of the £250m contribution we make also does come back to the UK in one form or another. But that isn't the issue with the accuracy of the claim so your comparison with services received from income tax doesn't apply.

[Mr_B]

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

I see the nervous twitch of your Ukip Tourette's is back again when angry. You do like to try and taint anyone who disagrees with you using that. As I said, I don't keep screen grabs of PH so have no idea what you did. Maybe others will wonder if you are honest with your edits as they stand.

..(more usual junk)...

They can wonder if they are as thick as you are. I'll let you play spot the difference. You can repeat your lie as much as you like it'll still be a lie.

My post:

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

You are deaf then. She answers after and says "no it doesn't" only after Marr saying "it doesn't have to left them join". You hear what you want to hear, as per when 4 people on PH told you a million plus migrants coming to Germany was of no real concern and declared it "settled".
As I said, at best its unclear and I concede she may well be saying that. You are just on edge to hear what you want to and take it as a given.

Not deaf, and not unclear at all. To anyone but you. Once again, she starts to answer even before his 'add-on'. Rest of the interview confirms that she meant what was reported. Two outfits made it quite clear what was the answer to, as if you needed it after seeing the video. The simple explanation is that you are so blinkered by your hatred of EU that you'll clutch any passing straws. Or it could be part of some MSM (BBC and Indy) conspiracy to make brexiters look stupid.

Mr_B said:

When you have a politician like Dave who is in denial of his own clear statements and plays down what he said when he needs to, don't be too surprised if the trust in him quickly goes out the window. You cant be saying how angered you are Turkey isn't being allowed to join the EU and how passionate you are to be their biggest champion to join one minute, then say no chance the next.
Guess what ? On a remain vote some people think he'll turn again and would vote them in. Leave the EU and you can simply trade with them and select who you don't mind coming to visit or work in the UK at you pleasure.

For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'.

Edited by jjlynn27 on Monday 23 May 15:18

Your reply quoting my post [posted after timestamp of my last edit];

Mr_B said:

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

You are deaf then. She answers after and says "no it doesn't" only after Marr saying "it doesn't have to left them join". You hear what you want to hear, as per when 4 people on PH told you a million plus migrants coming to Germany was of no real concern and declared it "settled".
As I said, at best its unclear and I concede she may well be saying that. You are just on edge to hear what you want to and take it as a given.

Not deaf, and not unclear at all. To anyone but you. Once again, she starts to answer even before his 'add-on'. Rest of the interview confirms that she meant what was reported. Two outfits made it quite clear what was the answer to, as if you needed it after seeing the video. The simple explanation is that you are so blinkered by your hatred of EU that you'll clutch any passing straws. Or it could be part of some MSM (BBC and Indy) conspiracy to make brexiters look stupid.

Mr_B said:

When you have a politician like Dave who is in denial of his own clear statements and plays down what he said when he needs to, don't be too surprised if the trust in him quickly goes out the window. You cant be saying how angered you are Turkey isn't being allowed to join the EU and how passionate you are to be their biggest champion to join one minute, then say no chance the next.
Guess what ? On a remain vote some people think he'll turn again and would vote them in. Leave the EU and you can simply trade with them and select who you don't mind coming to visit or work in the UK at you pleasure.

For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'.

... (reply to post) ...

It's technically impossible for your claim (edit/delete), to be anything but lie.


No need for screen grabs. Quoting works perfectly well, and last edit timestamp is impossible to fake/delete. Keep digging, liar.

Both posts are still there.


edited to fix quoting (see?)

Edited by jjlynn27 on Friday 27th May 21:23

Haha. Your comedy of errors continue with you editing your enraged post which you edited. I encourage you to keep making your edited ravings here.
You're PH gold when you get angry and go off on one because people ask questions and don't listen to you trying to decree something.
Your thin veneer of trying to come across as a calm liberal type only lasts a few posts before you are prodded into your Ukip tourettes and smilie face things in your FaceBook level of debate. Tell me, are you on YouTube comments too, all enraged ? It might be a natural home for you if not.

[Murph7355]

///ajd said:

..."Some migrants could be forced to leave the country after a UK exit from the EU."...

I guess it depends which ones he means...I can readily imagine "some" might well warrant being asked to return to their country of origin.