The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[cayman-black]

techiedave said:

I was going to vote out but I am now scared that if we leave I may end up facing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zoSCn0XR1I

The Angel Of Death

LOL. Very Good.

[BJG1]

don4l said:

I didn't mention Hitler or fascism.

You did.

If you want to disagree with me, then please disagree with things that I actually said.

Calling me an idiot because of things that I didn't say is a bit... err... stupid.

Why would you do this on a public forum?

I must admit that I am constantly surprised by the levels of stupidity that are displayed on the Internet.

I called you an idiot because you questioned why people lost their lives in the 2nd world war. You are equating a military campaign to take over europe, killing 10 million jews in the process and practicing eugenics with Germany being the country with the most influence in the EU.

I mentioned Hitler and fascism because that's who and what we fought against in the 2nd world war, you appear to have forgotten that

Edited by BJG1 on Saturday 28th May 11:41

[zygalski]

Pan Pan Pan said:

FiF said:

cookie118 said:

FiF said:

Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.

Hmm-I'm not sure of that. When you say we send the EU £350 million a week, put it on your campaign bus, send out leaflets with it on and continue to do so after you've been told multiple times it is wrong that seems like a pretty massive lie to me.

In other news the WTO chairman has pointed out some things
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YG1C8

In some respects these are statements of the obvious but still worth considering.
-161 nations in the WTO means negotiations will be slow as we'll have to negotiate as an entirely new member
-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries

Two things, if the campaign bus were printed with 150 million a week you could have no complaint, it's still a lot of money. If the bus were printed with the EU tells us how we can spend 250 million a week of our own money and only allowing us to spend 100 million a week on ourselves, again you could have no complaint. Note don't pick up on the exact figures, purposes of illustration only.

It annoys me too that Leave have gone with this 350 million figure as it's easy to knock down, and then in that smarmy way so often seen imply all the other claims are incorrect.

Of course that works both ways, Leave could point out all the blatant bare faced lies from Remain as demonstration of the paucity of the rest of their argument. The lies from Remain are out and out whoppers, including a Prime Minister lying to Parliament, he is worse than Blair. Actually the exposure odd the lies and rigging is working to discredit the wider Remain campaign which has lost total credibility though don't expect you to think that. So be it. Frankly no longer care what your fellow travellers think.

As for what the WTO says, that WTO option won't be the exit strategy in the event of a Leave vote, trust me on that, have explained often enough why it's not a sensible strategy, wouldn't get cross party support.

I feel that after 40 years membership we should (ought to) know by now without doubt, that our membership of the EU has been, and is a good thing for the UK, but the reality seems to be, that as a nation we do not.
If it truly was such a good thing for the average UK citizen, we likely would not even be having, or need to have a referendum on whether we stay or leave. This alone sets off alarm bells regarding our continued membership, and study of what the EU has done in relation to the UK, over the years forces to me to vote for out. If I could know for certain that the EU `has' been a good thing for the UK, I would be amongst the first to vote to remain, but I have no such confidence that it has, and the remain campaign has even now not been able to come up with sound/solid reasons why the UK should remain in the EU. certainly no more or less than the leave group has been able to come up with reasons why we should leave, So in my case it must be a personal decision based on what I have learned about the, EU and the way it operates.

Well as a Remain voter I'd say you've missed the point completely.
Thing is, how much fantasticamologically betterer would things have been for us had we not signed the Maastricht Treaty in 1992? That's the issue.

[///ajd]

Here is one of the main reasons to keep our hand (and a firm hand) on the EU tiller.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-...

It is all too easy for me to see that we'd be lucky to escape with only a 5% dip in GDP if we let these feckers dictate what the EU does to us pour encorager les autres.

[dandarez]

Now Gibraltar's fat chief hanger-on Minister, Fabian Picardo, is 'warning' people like me (Brexiteers) that we will have a lot to answer for if we vote leave and win.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fabian+picardo&a...

Well, up yours mate!
Perhaps you might slim down if you were pushed off the gravy train?

http://news.sky.com/story/1702417/gibraltar-in-sta...

The scare stories get worse by the minute. There has been lots of response to this 'dire warning' from the fat man. This response I'm pinching in part from someone else, because it sums up my feelings exactly.


Hang on a mo.
Picardo says Gibraltarians want their independence, but they want to deny us our independence? I thought better of them!
Gibraltarians want to be free from Spain; Brexiteers want to be free from the EU.
They can stay in the EU. Then the EU guarantees them freedom of movement throughout the EU, doesn't it?
...Er, no says Spain? And the EU will support Spain?

Unfortunately, the EU probably will let Spain get away with making things very difficult for the Gibraltarians. Do you really want to be part of a club that treats you like that?

With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies! Get the f. out of the EU!

Gibraltar should support Britain's independence, and we should support theirs - just as we always have for each other.

The EU is bringing ruin to Spain and she will soon want to follow us out of that disreputable organisation.

The Spanish would be well advised not to antagonise us! One way and another, they do very well out of us. And when we get back the rights to our fishing grounds, they will desperately need to get a deal with us. We can make fair treatment of Gibraltarians an essential part of any deal.

As an independent nation - without our hands tied by the EU - we will have much more clout when negotiating internationally. We will be in a much stronger position to support Gibraltar.

Every Gibraltarian should be voting for Britain to get OUT of the EU not stay in it!

[///ajd]

dandarez said:

Now Gibraltar's fat chief hanger-on Minister, Fabian Picardo, is 'warning' people like me (Brexiteers) that we will have a lot to answer for if we vote leave and win.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fabian+picardo&a...

Well, up yours mate!
Perhaps you might slim down if you were pushed off the gravy train?

http://news.sky.com/story/1702417/gibraltar-in-sta...

The scare stories get worse by the minute. There has been lots of response to this 'dire warning' from the fat man. This response I'm pinching in part from someone else, because it sums up my feelings exactly.


Hang on a mo.
Picardo says Gibraltarians want their independence, but they want to deny us our independence? I thought better of them!
Gibraltarians want to be free from Spain; Brexiteers want to be free from the EU.
They can stay in the EU. Then the EU guarantees them freedom of movement throughout the EU, doesn't it?
...Er, no says Spain? And the EU will support Spain?

Unfortunately, the EU probably will let Spain get away with making things very difficult for the Gibraltarians. Do you really want to be part of a club that treats you like that?

With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies! Get the f. out of the EU!

Gibraltar should support Britain's independence, and we should support theirs - just as we always have for each other.

The EU is bringing ruin to Spain and she will soon want to follow us out of that disreputable organisation.

The Spanish would be well advised not to antagonise us! One way and another, they do very well out of us. And when we get back the rights to our fishing grounds, they will desperately need to get a deal with us. We can make fair treatment of Gibraltarians an essential part of any deal.

As an independent nation - without our hands tied by the EU - we will have much more clout when negotiating internationally. We will be in a much stronger position to support Gibraltar.

Every Gibraltarian should be voting for Britain to get OUT of the EU not stay in it!

Spain would have lots of fun with UK/Gib after a brexit.

You might not care, but it doesn't make it untrue.

[FiF]

///ajd said:

FiF said:

cookie118 said:

JagLover said:

Spectator said:

This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.

Given the fact that leave have been rapped for lying and use an incorrect figure as their headline you could apply that quote to both campaigns.

Some of us have been pointing that out consistently, however badly the Leave campaign has been run the biggest and most frequent lies have come from Remain, personally have no doubt of that.

I don't the think the evidence backs that up. Lets look at two :

£350 is a current readily verifiable fact. Its a lie, though the real name number is still big. The real deception however it s in saying you can actually spend the money on the NHS etc. This is ignores the price of single market access, CAP payments to etc. And its been shown if you kiss off the single market the tariffs could dwarf the savings. The economics are just dishonest - the outcomes promised just are unrealistic.

£4200 better off has been logically explained as related the the GDP impact on brexit. This is a future assumption but there is reasonable opinion that 2-5% impact on GDP is a real possibility. The £4200 is a top end estimate, and perhaps a more balanced view shouod have been declared, but it is a possible outcome. It is not just fantasy wishful thinking, though the uncertainty and relationship between tax take and GDP does need carefully explaining.

4200 based on biased assumptions, worst case scenario with worst case of the error margins, methodological inaccuracies, conflating future gdp with current household income. Being economical with the actualité, and that's only one of the Remain lies.

I think the wider evidence does back up my assertions. Sorry if you don't agree, but then we never are.

[KrissKross]

///ajd said:

we'd be lucky to escape with only a 5% dip in GDP (plus WW3 remember)

Maybe this is what Cameron is using to predict the future:

"REMAINS" Analyitcal Computer: https://youtu.be/7IgF6_jVaj8

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

4200 based on biased assumptions, worst case scenario with worst case of the error margins, methodological inaccuracies, conflating future gdp with current household income. Being economical with the actualité, and that's only one of the Remain lies.

I think the wider evidence does back up my assertions. Sorry if you don't agree, but then we never are.

But we know the assumptions, model, scenarios etc that they have used. They've said we've put X and y into computer model z and got this answer. We can argue about the validity etc but it's all there.

Whereas leave are using a totally wrong figure

I don't see how the first is worse than the second?

[danllama]

FiF said:

Thanks for that link, it's well worth reading, yet in reality just touches the surface of the downright lies and dishonesty in this campaign. Cameron and Osborne should be made to pay for this.

The summing up sentence echoes what I have been saying, "Cameron has said that he wants to settle the European issue once and for all. He can only do that if he makes a fair and honest argument." He's failed on all counts.

Maybe. But one side is backed by our prime minister and government, who we have trusted to run this country and indeed the referendum, fairly and honestly.

[turbobloke]

danllama said:

FiF said:

Thanks for that link, it's well worth reading, yet in reality just touches the surface of the downright lies and dishonesty in this campaign. Cameron and Osborne should be made to pay for this.

The summing up sentence echoes what I have been saying, "Cameron has said that he wants to settle the European issue once and for all. He can only do that if he makes a fair and honest argument." He's failed on all counts.

Maybe. But one side is backed by our prime minister and government, who we have trusted to run this country and indeed the referendum, fairly and honestly.

Regarding the referendum, waddamistaykadamayka.

[confused_buyer]

///ajd said:

Here is one of the main reasons to keep our hand (and a firm hand) on the EU tiller.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-...

It is all too easy for me to see that we'd be lucky to escape with only a 5% dip in GDP if we let these feckers dictate what the EU does to us pour encorager les autres.

There is a contradiction in this. They seem to be saying on the one hand leaving would be a disaster anyway, yet on the other they are saying they'd have to be deliberately awkward because otherwise it would be a success and encourage others?

If leaving in its own right would deliver what some of the forecasts say it will then I would have thought that would be enough to put anyone off. The EU by threatening this seem to be tacitly admitting there is a possibility it could be a success and others may wish to follow.

They can't have it both ways.

[FiF]

cookie118 said:

FiF said:

4200 based on biased assumptions, worst case scenario with worst case of the error margins, methodological inaccuracies, conflating future gdp with current household income. Being economical with the actualité, and that's only one of the Remain lies.

I think the wider evidence does back up my assertions. Sorry if you don't agree, but then we never are.

But we know the assumptions, model, scenarios etc that they have used. They've said we've put X and y into computer model z and got this answer. We can argue about the validity etc but it's all there.

Whereas leave are using a totally wrong figure

I don't see how the first is worse than the second?

You keep on desperately clinging to the one straw. The lies from Remain have been numerous and ridiculous, including a blatant lie to Parliament. In aggregate it's no contest in the degree of mendacity, anyone looking at it objectively can see it.

That doesn't mean I'm defending the 350 million, because if you look back in volume 1 there was a very unprepossessing spat between myself and another where I complained about the lack of truth behind the annualised version of that, iirc the claim was that we send 19 billion a year to the EU, which is just as wrong as the 350 million figure.

But any way carry on blinkers.

[s2art]

cookie118 said:

-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries

Not true. The agreement would continue unless one side or the other cancels it.

[anonymous-user]

s2art said:

cookie118 said:

-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries

Not true. The agreement would continue unless one side or the other cancels it.

Really? That seems odd as surely the relationship is with the eu and we'd no longer be in the eu.

That 'fact' seems to keep on coming up but I've never seen any evidence or quotes from a reliable source to back it up?

[///ajd]

confused_buyer said:

///ajd said:

Here is one of the main reasons to keep our hand (and a firm hand) on the EU tiller.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-...

It is all too easy for me to see that we'd be lucky to escape with only a 5% dip in GDP if we let these feckers dictate what the EU does to us pour encorager les autres.

There is a contradiction in this. They seem to be saying on the one hand leaving would be a disaster anyway, yet on the other they are saying they'd have to be deliberately awkward because otherwise it would be a success and encourage others?

If leaving in its own right would deliver what some of the forecasts say it will then I would have thought that would be enough to put anyone off. The EU by threatening this seem to be tacitly admitting there is a possibility it could be a success and others may wish to follow.

They can't have it both ways.

They are not having it both ways.

Just because the EU doesn't want us to leave doesn't mean brexit will be success. That is seriously flawed logic.

A brexit may encorage other Nationalistic sentiment to rise and break up the EU. This could be a disaster for everyone in the EU.

Just like Scotland leaving the UK would have been a disaster for the both Scotland and the rUK. The economics are not the same as UK leaving the EU as UK is relatively strong in the EU, but you can take the scenario of a Scotland now in massive deficit and debt without barnett would quickly be a basket case which would create huge problems for the rUK. Other EU countries getting Far right separatist ideas could be very damaging. Remember also, just because we are strong in the EU doesn't mean we wouldn't be weaker on brexit - I'm now convinced we would be worse off with impacted GDP and hence services.

The is not a swell of opinion saying our GDP will climb post brexit is there? Far far from it!!!!

[KrissKross]

cookie118 said:

the relationship is with the eu

No its not, the "EU" is a Fugazi, its not real, its just a word.

Our relationships are with individuals, businesses and countries, not the "EU".

Maybe the "EU" could become a new religion, it probably makes more sense to think of it that way, people putting their hope and trust into a load of made up stories, with weirdos in charge.

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

No its not, the "EU" is a Fugazi, its not real, its just a word.

Our relationships are with individuals, businesses and countries, not the "EU".

Maybe the "EU" could become a new religion, it probably makes more sense to think of it that way, people putting their hope and trust into a load of made up stories, with weirdos in charge.

Pretty sure the trade agreements are with the eu.

Nice to know that we're having a referendum over something that is 'not real-just a word'

[KrissKross]

cookie118 said:

KrissKross said:

No its not, the "EU" is a Fugazi, its not real, its just a word.

Our relationships are with individuals, businesses and countries, not the "EU".

Maybe the "EU" could become a new religion, it probably makes more sense to think of it that way, people putting their hope and trust into a load of made up stories, with weirdos in charge.

Pretty sure the trade agreements are with the eu.

Nice to know that we're having a referendum over something that is 'not real-just a word'

My trade agreements are not with the EU.

[s2art]

cookie118 said:

s2art said:

cookie118 said:

-we'd lose the tariff free access negotiated by the EU to 58 countries

Not true. The agreement would continue unless one side or the other cancels it.

Really? That seems odd as surely the relationship is with the eu and we'd no longer be in the eu.

That 'fact' seems to keep on coming up but I've never seen any evidence or quotes from a reliable source to back it up?

See http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/brexit-trade-trea...

Its long.