The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
Hugh Jarse said:
.....there is more democracy in Eurovision than normal politics.
You made me spill my coffee !! 
We live in a representative democracy....we vote, they govern. Pure democracy would entail a referendum on everything. The current EU set up would appear to be democracy by proxy.
XCP said:
turbobloke said:
At the moment its 'government' includes the EU via Treaties and Directives.
Get out of the EU and there's less to be protected from, and as we have the names of MPs on ballot papers, as opposed to EC drones whose name we never get to see on ballot papers for us to mark, we can take a more meaningful part in the process.
Sadly I don't see our Parliamentary system as being significantly more democratic than Brussels or Strasbourg. I get one vote every 5 years or so for both, and then they basically do what they like, it seems to me.Get out of the EU and there's less to be protected from, and as we have the names of MPs on ballot papers, as opposed to EC drones whose name we never get to see on ballot papers for us to mark, we can take a more meaningful part in the process.
Our higher chamber doesn't even pretend to be democratic.
JawKnee said:
alock said:
Almost everyone I know wants to leave. There are two exceptions and they are both very outspoken.
One setup a company 10 years ago selling medical products throughout the EU. They don't sell outside the EU.
The other works for an IT company providing services to airports throughout the EU.
I understand both of these people have very specific personal reasons to remain, but that is all it is, a concern that their jobs might under threat. They don't have a greater ideological reason to remain.
Yes, the prospect of losing your livelihood is not as great an ideological argument as the UK being able to make its own bendy cucumber laws....One setup a company 10 years ago selling medical products throughout the EU. They don't sell outside the EU.
The other works for an IT company providing services to airports throughout the EU.
I understand both of these people have very specific personal reasons to remain, but that is all it is, a concern that their jobs might under threat. They don't have a greater ideological reason to remain.
Get a grip.
turbobloke said:
cookie118 said:
s2art said:
What is somewhat amusing is that both people think that Brexit will make a difference to their livelihoods. It wont.
This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.It expressed a particular form of amusement - a surprised form of amusement possibly though that's my interpretation not necesarily the poster's intent - that anyone could be so certain that remaining within a dysfunctional supranational experiment with its basketcase eurozone, will make a positive difference to livelihoods. It's a reasonable perspective.
Perhaps trying to turn it into a bit of a positive though. I realised the other day that this thread and PH in general has made me read so much more about the EU and our relationship with it than I would otherwise have done. It hasn't changed my mind but it has meant that I'll be going into the vote much more informed than I would otherwise have been. It might sometimes get a bit nasty but I hope others have found the same, regardless of 'side'.
turbobloke said:
I've made similar points in this thread not long ago, in terms of 'democracy' being a varied and wonderful thing where ours isn't particularly responsive over the 5 year period but it's a trade-off against a possible Labour government having sufficient time to screw things up properly. At least with our law-originating politicians we get a chance to make our mark against a name once every five years, which is an infinitely more direct form of democracy than our vote for or against EU law-originators in the EC, as we never get to see their names on a ballot paper to help elect or help boot out. No comparison, really.
I should be pleased that you think my vote matters. Sadly though I don't share your enthusiasm. Sometimes I wish I could be less cynical, but there we have it.I suppose at least with an EU exit we can look forward to our self serving politicians being entirely home grown. I remain unconvinced that this is a good enough reason the join the Brexiters though.
As an aside, most people that I speak to are firmly in the 'don't know ' camp because they do not know who, if anyone, to believe.
Jockman said:
Hugh Jarse said:
.....there is more democracy in Eurovision than normal politics.
You made me spill my coffee !! We live in a representative democracy....we vote, they govern. Pure democracy would entail a referendum on everything. The current EU set up would appear to be democracy by proxy.
Would it not be interesting to help decide everything, that is definition of democracy in the Greek sense.
Or keep paying those taxes and deciding bugger all suckers.
But as stated, having a plebiscite on this is chuffing brilliant. Democracy in action.
If you didnt have a vote on this plebiscite, how much would you care or know about the EU?
XCP said:
turbobloke said:
I've made similar points in this thread not long ago, in terms of 'democracy' being a varied and wonderful thing where ours isn't particularly responsive over the 5 year period but it's a trade-off against a possible Labour government having sufficient time to screw things up properly. At least with our law-originating politicians we get a chance to make our mark against a name once every five years, which is an infinitely more direct form of democracy than our vote for or against EU law-originators in the EC, as we never get to see their names on a ballot paper to help elect or help boot out. No comparison, really.
I should be pleased that you think my vote matters.XCP said:
As an aside, most people that I speak to are firmly in the 'don't know ' camp because they do not know who, if anyone, to believe.
KrissKross said:
excellent, sea levels to rise 40 ft drowning all the old people ,roflmao.wc98 said:
KrissKross said:
excellent, sea levels to rise 40 ft drowning all the old people ,roflmao.
A new week, another CMD message... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
It will be bad for defence and diplomacy, too
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b057474-18fd-11e6-bb7d-...
I'm quaking in my brogues.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b057474-18fd-11e6-bb7d-...
I'm quaking in my brogues.
272BHP said:
I am confused by the polls to be honest.
I talk to a broad range of people and I can only think of a couple that actually want to remain in the EU, the vast majority seem to want out and many are quite forthright in their views.
What does everyone else see on the ground?
Alas, amongst my friends and work colleagues, over half are remain. Particularly the younger cosmopolitan types who conflate remain with "being nice to foreigners". All well educated, but not apparently given to a consideration of the issues beyond "it's racist".I talk to a broad range of people and I can only think of a couple that actually want to remain in the EU, the vast majority seem to want out and many are quite forthright in their views.
What does everyone else see on the ground?
JawKnee said:
Yes, the prospect of losing your livelihood is not as great an ideological argument as the UK being able to make its own bendy cucumber laws....
Get a grip.
One might say that the history of enfranchisement has involved a great many people going through all sorts of hardship, imprisonment, deportation and worse, for hundreds of years. Then in 3 short generations people are so scared of any change they will give it away for the illusion of security. Don't want to maybe have to delay that phone upgrade for a few months, after all.Get a grip.
///ajd said:
You could also question the validity of an outcome that was helped by apathy.
Like in the scot ref, if this is very close - whilst it may technically be democratically defined - a 51% leave vote is a rather shakey mandate to do something that has no plan and 49% probably consider is rather reckless. The scale of the impact of brexit could be argued to need a much stronger mandate, not a feeble "just edged over the line".
Getting twitchy are we ajd ? Like in the scot ref, if this is very close - whilst it may technically be democratically defined - a 51% leave vote is a rather shakey mandate to do something that has no plan and 49% probably consider is rather reckless. The scale of the impact of brexit could be argued to need a much stronger mandate, not a feeble "just edged over the line".
Democracy - only a good thing when you get the result you want.
More than 300 business leaders back a Brexit
Apart from the main article, the other interesting bit is the table of who funds the in and out campaigns... they seem to have missed off the Taxpayer contributing £9m+ to the Remain campaign...
Apart from the main article, the other interesting bit is the table of who funds the in and out campaigns... they seem to have missed off the Taxpayer contributing £9m+ to the Remain campaign...
An article not specifically about Brexit, but makes some valid points regarding the performance of the EU over the last 15 years. It brings into question the potential cost of staying in the EU, both economically and socially, which is something not being debated at all.
The decadence of Europe’s dismal elites is fuelling the populist surge across the EU
The decadence of Europe’s dismal elites is fuelling the populist surge across the EU
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