The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[Sam All]

EddieSteadyGo said:

wc98 said:

just realised how low the official debate has sunk on both sides as i listened to esther mcvey on the bbc. she has come across as the most sensible politician i have listened to in recent days and actually knew what she was talking about. how bad must the rest be to make esther mcvey look good.

Gosh...Esther McVey.... glad she impressed. Not sure which side she is on in terms of the EU debate, but have always found her generally lacking IMO.

I thought she'd left politics after the EU had deemed her voice did not comply with their regulations.

[EddieSteadyGo]

Sam All said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

wc98 said:

just realised how low the official debate has sunk on both sides as i listened to esther mcvey on the bbc. she has come across as the most sensible politician i have listened to in recent days and actually knew what she was talking about. how bad must the rest be to make esther mcvey look good.

Gosh...Esther McVey.... glad she impressed. Not sure which side she is on in terms of the EU debate, but have always found her generally lacking IMO.

I thought she'd left politics after the EU had deemed her voice did not comply with their regulations.

I thought she should have left politics as she wasn't quite good enough to carry the argument.

Feel free to post a clip of her being brilliant though.

[wc98]

EddieSteadyGo said:

wc98 said:

just realised how low the official debate has sunk on both sides as i listened to esther mcvey on the bbc. she has come across as the most sensible politician i have listened to in recent days and actually knew what she was talking about. how bad must the rest be to make esther mcvey look good.

Gosh...Esther McVey.... glad she impressed. Not sure which side she is on in terms of the EU debate, but have always found her generally lacking IMO.

it was not exactly high level debate , but i was still shocked she was capable of saying anything that even made sense.

[wc98]

EddieSteadyGo said:

I thought she should have left politics as she wasn't quite good enough to carry the argument.

Feel free to post a clip of her being brilliant though.

agreed, brilliant may be stretching it a tad , but it beat the crap out of some of the utter speculative ste i have listened to various remain campaigners spout recently
just looked and apparently the hourly news programs not available on i player ? i just caught the end of it, looked to be one of the hourly programs on the 24 hour bbc news channel.

[Ridgemont]

31 days to go and the scaremongering rolls on;

Brexit will break the NHS;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/simon-s...

Though I suspect we'll be hearing a lot more about DIY recessions tomorrow morning. Convenient given industry has just slipped back into recession anyway..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/br...

And in response to eddiesteadygo's request for equal billing for leavers..

Hmm. Couldn't find one. Anyone want to fill in the blank? Only rule of thumb has to be that it is in today's news cycle and not something said by x five days ago..

Edited by Ridgemont on Sunday 22 May 23:45

[Mr_B]

jjlynn27 said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Mr_B said:

The first time she says 'no' I would say she is agreeing with the idea the Marr's last part of his question about how the UK doesn't have to let it join. Watch the video and I would say you can hear in her voice she is quite clearly agreeing with this.
The Independent snipped it's sub headline to fit the agenda and it doesn't seem a surprise that a few on here seize on it too.

The second time is where she made a a mess of it by saying "no, we , we, er , I do not think we are going to keep Turkey out ".
if you what to quote mine it and edit it , then sure, I would say she made a mess of it.

Seems to me you would argue black is white if it suited the campaign to leave.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your view; we will just have to agree to disagree.

Guardian said:

...
interview with Mordaunt on The Andrew Marr Show, in which she said the way the migrant crisis was being handled was speeding up the accession of Turkey, in particular, but other countries as well.

Asked if Britain had a veto on the issue, Mordaunt replied: “No it doesn’t.” She then argued: “I do not think that the EU is going to keep Turkey out. I think it is going to join. I think the migrant crisis is pushing it more that way.”
...

I'm not sure why you've posted this as the full wording was already discussed. I'll be the first to admit you could read it several ways. The confusion starts, as I've already pointed out, when Marr says the government doesn't have to let them join , after he mentioned the veto. She then says "no it doesn't" . It could be answering either point.
She totally fumbled the interview and left it wide open to look stupid in seemingly denying something very clear. I'm no fan of her or the Tories. I read it several different ways. Others insist its clear. It's muddled at best. If she hasn't issued a correction and excuse by now, she must be dumb or she really does believe the UK has no veto powers.

I found it interesting that the online papers made a big thing out of it, while Harriet Harman was allowed to talk her own gibberish that was clearly prepared in advance as a scare story on the rise of food shopping, where there is no confusion as to what she said, and it doesn't make headlines.

[Northern Munkee]

Ridgemont said:

31 days to go and the scaremongering rolls on;

Brexit will break the NHS;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/simon-s...

Though I suspect we'll be hearing a lot more about DIY recessions tomorrow morning. Convenient given industry has just slipped back into recession anyway..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/br...

And in response to eddiesteadygo's request for equal billing for leavers..

Hmm. Couldn't find one. Anyone want to fill in the blank? Only rule of thumb has to be that it is in today's news cycle and not something said by x five days ago..

Edited by Ridgemont on Sunday 22 May 23:45

Here watch the whole interview https://youtu.be/XLnawlYyJqY

You know the NHS Chief Exec is full of st, when you look at the figures quoted in the lead into Owen.

Cost to NHS of EEA citizens 3m (apparently ONS figures - presumably discredited International Passenger Survey) is £340m (NHS figures) or £113 per person per year. I mean how many trips to the doctor is that?!

Cost of NHS for (i presume UK) £113bn for population ~65m. Or £1738 per person.

Oh yeah that's believable.

[Ridgemont]

Northern Munkee said:

Ridgemont said:

31 days to go and the scaremongering rolls on;

Brexit will break the NHS;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/simon-s...

Though I suspect we'll be hearing a lot more about DIY recessions tomorrow morning. Convenient given industry has just slipped back into recession anyway..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/br...

And in response to eddiesteadygo's request for equal billing for leavers..

Hmm. Couldn't find one. Anyone want to fill in the blank? Only rule of thumb has to be that it is in today's news cycle and not something said by x five days ago..

Edited by Ridgemont on Sunday 22 May 23:45

Here watch the whole interview https://youtu.be/XLnawlYyJqY

You know the NHS Chief Exec is full of st, when you look at the figures quoted in the lead into Owen.

Cost to NHS of EEA citizens 3m (apparently ONS figures - presumably discredited International Passenger Survey) is £340m (NHS figures) or £113 per person per year. I mean how many trips to the doctor is that?!

Cost of NHS for (i presume UK) £113bn for population ~65m. Or £1738 per person.

Oh yeah that's believable.

It's believable if you assume that they are all of working age and therefore not the drain that the permanently infirm and aged are. But that gives the remainers a get out of jail card; on that argument unlimited migration makes sense because it will continually pay for old people. Which frankly is bonkers. The impact on aging on the NHS would probably require 30-40 million immigrants to make the numbers add up. Good luck on that one!

[hidetheelephants]

Given the EU wants to go to qualified majority decision making that veto will be worth a pitcher of warm spit.

[Ridgemont]

hidetheelephants said:

Given the EU wants to go to qualified majority decision making that veto will be worth a pitcher of warm spit.

QMV is there in all its glory already. The veto is still there in things like accession. The teensy issue for our friends suggesting that some how Turkey won't accede is that not only has Cameron indicated he is in favour of Turkish accession, but he's signed up to an EU communique advocating speeding up that accession. Suggestions that 75m people may not in the next 10 yrs be fully paid up members of the EU with free movement may be somewhat 'optimistic'.

[paulrockliffe]

So, have we had clarification on the order of things yet? When the public talk about needing facts, this is the sort of thing we need to know.

I mean it's important to know whether the £4,300 I'll have to stump up, the year long recession with a 3.5% drop in GDP, the house prices drop of 18%, the closure of the NHS and the tariffs on BMWs will all happen before or after WWIII?

I'm assuming we can ignore the 500,000 job losses, as the army will be recruiting heavily, though I'm disappointed that that wasn't included in the modelling.

Interestingly, the BBC dilemma of pro- EU vs anti Tory seems to be going against the Tories at the moment, Sarah Montague's interview with Sajid Javid was positively dripping with sarcasm and disdain this morning.

[Tony427]

So we now have a thoroughly dishonest PM, Chancellor and Government bringing out a doom and gloom report that we, the people they actually work for have paid for, which they deem it is in our interest that we do not see in its entirity.

You can have the scary negative but we are not going to let you see the positives.

Who the hell do they think they are?

What they are not is the next governnment unless they change , as many Conservative voters, disgusted by the behaviour of Cameron and his cronies, are recoiling in horror from the party and in particular Cameron and Osborne.

Win or lose they are both for the cull following the referendum.

Cheers,

Tony

[Sam All]

So Cameron & Co claim sterling will fall by up to 15%.

So against the Euro about 90p to the Euro against the current level of 77p up from 70p in Nov 2015.

3 years ago we were at the levels CMD & Co suggest in their doomsday scenario.

We were doing fine then, as we were in 2011 when sterling was pretty much at parity to the Euro.

Scare mongering.

[rdjohn]

https://yougov.co.uk/turnout-o-meter/?turnout=67&a...

This a YouGov interactive that people can play arround with and draw their own conclusions

[wc98]

looking at the doom and gloom predicted if we leave the eu, surely this means anyone that believes the financial argument would never vote to leave no matter what happens in the future .mario149 believes the smart people should listen to the even smarter people that are advising us of imminent doom if we leave.to those saying we have the option to leave in the future (///ajd ) ,would any of you ever vote to leave the eu when the picture painted is we are now a nation incapable of wiping our own arse unless we are part of a political union with europe ?

[sanf]

Tony427 said:

So we now have a thoroughly dishonest PM, Chancellor and Government bringing out a doom and gloom report that we, the people they actually work for have paid for, which they deem it is in our interest that we do not see in its entirety.

You can have the scary negative but we are not going to let you see the positives.

Who the hell do they think they are?

What they are not is the next government unless they change , as many Conservative voters, disgusted by the behavior of Cameron and his cronies, are recoiling in horror from the party and in particular Cameron and Osborne.

Win or lose they are both for the cull following the referendum.

Cheers,

Tony

That's an interesting point, I can't believe Cameron even opened the possibility of a referendum if the potential consequences were so dire, just idiotic.

The whole campaign is turning into a complete farce, and I hope people ultimately go against Cameron just to tell him to jog on!! Current politics in this country is hitting many all time lows!!

Cameron has been a disgrace in this campaign and I hope they get rid of him to freshen things up. I do think we'll stay in the EU, but giving a new team, a good chance to settle in before the next election and fix all the damage done will be key. The good news will be if we are in the EU, the new PM will have an ever-growing economy, no euro-wars, mass employment, no immigration and everything smelling of roses....happy days.

[jjlynn27]

Mr_B said:

I'm not sure why you've posted this as the full wording was already discussed. I'll be the first to admit you could read it several ways. The confusion starts, as I've already pointed out, when Marr says the government doesn't have to let them join , after he mentioned the veto. She then says "no it doesn't" . It could be answering either point.
She totally fumbled the interview and left it wide open to look stupid in seemingly denying something very clear. I'm no fan of her or the Tories. I read it several different ways. Others insist its clear. It's muddled at best. If she hasn't issued a correction and excuse by now, she must be dumb or she really does believe the UK has no veto powers.

Another source stating something that seems to be obvious to everyone but you. Your blinkers are on so tight it's comical. She started to answer even before he added the last part, the rest of the interview left no doubt as to what she was answering to.

The simple facts are; there is a veto in place, or as per that professor of eu-law, double-veto. Changing that would require new treaty. Over which, again, UK has veto powers.

With that in place, what Cameron think, or to be more precise, what couple of poster on PH know about what Cameron thinks, is completely and utterly irrelevant.

[Mr_B]

jjlynn27 said:

Mr_B said:

I'm not sure why you've posted this as the full wording was already discussed. I'll be the first to admit you could read it several ways. The confusion starts, as I've already pointed out, when Marr says the government doesn't have to let them join , after he mentioned the veto. She then says "no it doesn't" . It could be answering either point.
She totally fumbled the interview and left it wide open to look stupid in seemingly denying something very clear. I'm no fan of her or the Tories. I read it several different ways. Others insist its clear. It's muddled at best. If she hasn't issued a correction and excuse by now, she must be dumb or she really does believe the UK has no veto powers.

Another source stating something that seems to be obvious to everyone but you. Your blinkers are on so tight it's comical. She started to answer even before he added the last part, the rest of the interview left no doubt as to what she was answering to.

The simple facts are; there is a veto in place, or as per that professor of eu-law, double-veto. Changing that would require new treaty. Over which, again, UK has veto powers.

With that in place, what Cameron think, or to be more precise, what couple of poster on PH know about what Cameron thinks, is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You are deaf then. She answers after and says "no it doesn't" only after Marr saying "it doesn't have to left them join". You hear what you want to hear, as per when 4 people on PH told you a million plus migrants coming to Germany was of no real concern and declared it "settled".
As I said, at best its unclear and I concede she may well be saying that. You are just on edge to hear what you want to and take it as a given.

When you have a politician like Dave who is in denial of his own clear statements and plays down what he said when he needs to, don't be too surprised if the trust in him quickly goes out the window. You cant be saying how angered you are Turkey isn't being allowed to join the EU and how passionate you are to be their biggest champion to join one minute, then say no chance the next.
Guess what ? On a remain vote some people think he'll turn again and would vote them in. Leave the EU and you can simply trade with them and select who you don't mind coming to visit or work in the UK at you pleasure.

[CrutyRammers]

EddieSteadyGo said:

If only life were as simple as your analysis would suggest.

Lets take an example (which happens to be true). Lets say the UK Government could help UK companies gain contracts in Turkey worth tens of millions by offering some warm words of encouragement to the Turkish government - would that be worthwhile?

It might take a 3 day visit, a few speeches, a couple of official dinners meeting Turkish dignitaries.

And in return our companies are able to compete and win large contracts, employing, hundreds of jobs, all with UK taxes paid on the money.

Do you mean to say that our people can go off and arrange trade deals and investment with other countries without needing to go through the EU?

[Hosenbugler]

Cameron's former key adviser Steve Hilton supports Brexit. Lays it out in stark terms

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3603793/Wh...

‘Membership of the EU makes Britain literally ungovernable, in the sense that no administration elected by the people can govern the country."

Bang on the nail.!