The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
Burwood said:
You've made a blanket statement about getting rid of Pols - i don't, i employ some. They are hard working and speak good english. I know that make sound strange coming from a xenophobic Leaver.
We're talking about 16 and 17 million on each side, blanket statements are inevitable and necessary to discuss the overall issues. I'm not talking about you personally anymore than I'm suggesting that every one of the 17 million who voted leave is a thick xenophobe.I'm mostly frustrated that a significant number of turkeys have just voted for Christmas. Right wing Neolibertarians are no friends of the disaffected, downtrodden and otherwise-largely-ignored working class, yet that is exactly who they have just voted for, in effect.
turbobloke said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
It is worth watching this, it was posted a while back, but it becomes much more important now, with the vote. Flexcit the movie, explains where we are now, and where we can go, and the limitations imposed on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEo_TNllk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEo_TNllk4
minimoog said:
We're talking about 16 and 17 million on each side, blanket statements are inevitable and necessary to discuss the overall issues. I'm not talking about you personally anymore than I'm suggesting that every one of the 17 million who voted leave is a thick xenophobe.
I'm mostly frustrated that a significant number of turkeys have just voted for Christmas. Right wing Neolibertarians are no friends of the disaffected, downtrodden and otherwise-largely-ignored working class, yet that is exactly who they have just voted for, in effect.
That depends on your point of view. I would say functioning democracy is a great help to the poor and the marginalised. More so than an extensive benefits system or well funded public services. I'm mostly frustrated that a significant number of turkeys have just voted for Christmas. Right wing Neolibertarians are no friends of the disaffected, downtrodden and otherwise-largely-ignored working class, yet that is exactly who they have just voted for, in effect.
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
pkrplyr said:
Robertj21a said:
I swear some people have lost their marbles today. Is it the weather or just 'nutter' season ?
As others on this thread have said, we've moved on. Any bright ideas from you that we can use to help move the country forward ?
In answer to your questions.As others on this thread have said, we've moved on. Any bright ideas from you that we can use to help move the country forward ?
Nutter season.
Spend taxpayers money on education, specifically adressing the issue of endemic
ignorance, along with social and economics understanding.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Absolutely. it seems that remainers cannot have looked at the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU since 1975, nor can they do the basic arithmetic regarding what the UK pays into the EU compared to what it actually gets back, in positive funding, nor do they understand that the EU sells more of its goods and services into the UK, than the UK sells into the EU, and it has been doing that for almost the entire 40 years since the UK joined the EEC.
You'll never get away with actually describing the reality of 40 years of the EU from our point of view.Some views in Editorials overseas.
Berlingske Denmark - the referendum result only underlines the conviction in America that most politicians are too far removed from the people.
The British ‘no’ to the EU will strengthen the Americans in one thing: they are not on their own with their fears and worry for the future. They are not alone with their feeling that politicans who are deciding on their lives are following their own interests and not those of their people. They are not alone when they demand that in the future politics should be decided much more closely with the people rather than by bureaucrats in distant Washington or just as distant Brussels.
Tages Anzeiger Switzerland - Merkel is now responsible for turning Europe round, but she lacks the necessary charisma.
Whatever direction the developments (in Europe) take, one thing is for sure, Germany will now get the task of reuniting Europe and to prepare it for the future.
Angela Merkel, Europe’s dinosaur, is suited to this task, and at the same time unsuited for it. As a crisis manager she has proved numerous times that she is capable of leading with a calm hand and in so doing she thinks and behaves in a more European way than all the other heads of state and government in this continent.
But at the same time, she’s lacking the vision and passion. She knows that Europe will remain Germany’s horizon, and she’s a convinced European, but she has no success in trying to convince the citizens of the continent of the future of their Union.
Berlingske Denmark - the referendum result only underlines the conviction in America that most politicians are too far removed from the people.
The British ‘no’ to the EU will strengthen the Americans in one thing: they are not on their own with their fears and worry for the future. They are not alone with their feeling that politicans who are deciding on their lives are following their own interests and not those of their people. They are not alone when they demand that in the future politics should be decided much more closely with the people rather than by bureaucrats in distant Washington or just as distant Brussels.
Tages Anzeiger Switzerland - Merkel is now responsible for turning Europe round, but she lacks the necessary charisma.
Whatever direction the developments (in Europe) take, one thing is for sure, Germany will now get the task of reuniting Europe and to prepare it for the future.
Angela Merkel, Europe’s dinosaur, is suited to this task, and at the same time unsuited for it. As a crisis manager she has proved numerous times that she is capable of leading with a calm hand and in so doing she thinks and behaves in a more European way than all the other heads of state and government in this continent.
But at the same time, she’s lacking the vision and passion. She knows that Europe will remain Germany’s horizon, and she’s a convinced European, but she has no success in trying to convince the citizens of the continent of the future of their Union.
NRS said:
It won't really all square up, since there is a lot of contrasting reasons for voting, not all of which make sense/ match up. However my take on it is this.
Some people voted because they are racists, as simple as that. Jobs etc. don't matter as much as the dislike of foreigners.
However some others have problems with foreigners, not because of their race, but that they are willing to work for mucher lower salaries. This then lowers the salaries for jobs that don't need much education, and so affects the living standard of a lot of the less wealthy in society. This is particularly bad these days since a lot of jobs are also being replaced by robots and computers. So less jobs but but more competition who is willing to work for lower rates = a problem for the poorer in society. Thus they don't want the immigration that is allowed in the EU, not because of racism, but because of the impact on their life and living standard. In theory by removing cheaper "foreign" labour then things will become more expensive, but poorer people will have a better standard of living due to better salary. The reality is a lot more people fall into this camp than the pure racist camp depsite all the headlines that anyone earning under £1 million is a benefit thief who sits at home smoking, eating and playing the lotto all day. However because of the subtly there has not been much coverage or recognition of this group. It's tended to be either "racist" or "accepting person who loves Europe".
It also explains why you have the more far left and right effectively being leave people, whereas the more rich middle class centre ground is operated by the remain side. As someone who was relatively neautral it has annoyed me that a lot of university educated friends (I am myself, so no problems with it) have been pretty elitist and saying there should be IQ tests etc. to have been allowed to vote. The reality is a large part of the population are very much affected by competition for lower paid jobs, and so their voice should count for just as much as someone earning far more through a highly educated job.
Great post, NRS – views I agree with. Over the weekend I was appalled at some of the comments from so-called ‘educated’ people on Mrs.T66’s FB account – especially from those in academia - so much for all voices having an equal say, which is the standard for a true democracy. As stated previously, it was a case of all ‘Leave’ voters were nothing but ill-educated, knuckle-dragging right-wing racists. I tried to have a reasoned debate with a couple of posters, highlighting my somewhat left-wing stance exemplified by Tony Benn’s thoughts on the EU (after someone called me a right-wing fascist!), but it made no difference – I still ‘apparently’ didn’t know what I was doing in voting to quit the EU.Some people voted because they are racists, as simple as that. Jobs etc. don't matter as much as the dislike of foreigners.
However some others have problems with foreigners, not because of their race, but that they are willing to work for mucher lower salaries. This then lowers the salaries for jobs that don't need much education, and so affects the living standard of a lot of the less wealthy in society. This is particularly bad these days since a lot of jobs are also being replaced by robots and computers. So less jobs but but more competition who is willing to work for lower rates = a problem for the poorer in society. Thus they don't want the immigration that is allowed in the EU, not because of racism, but because of the impact on their life and living standard. In theory by removing cheaper "foreign" labour then things will become more expensive, but poorer people will have a better standard of living due to better salary. The reality is a lot more people fall into this camp than the pure racist camp depsite all the headlines that anyone earning under £1 million is a benefit thief who sits at home smoking, eating and playing the lotto all day. However because of the subtly there has not been much coverage or recognition of this group. It's tended to be either "racist" or "accepting person who loves Europe".
It also explains why you have the more far left and right effectively being leave people, whereas the more rich middle class centre ground is operated by the remain side. As someone who was relatively neautral it has annoyed me that a lot of university educated friends (I am myself, so no problems with it) have been pretty elitist and saying there should be IQ tests etc. to have been allowed to vote. The reality is a large part of the population are very much affected by competition for lower paid jobs, and so their voice should count for just as much as someone earning far more through a highly educated job.
Personally, I have always tried to understand views that I don’t agree with. Maybe if those with bigoted views were properly engaged with and understood, we might actually get somewhere – is there a reasoned viewpoint behind it? Maybe a fight for housing, jobs, healthcare or education that the middle-class elite do not see nor relate to? It doesn’t make blaming ‘foreigners’ right (blaming the policy that overwhelms already-stretched social services is the key), but it would help with understanding and real problem-solving.
AJS- said:
That depends on your point of view. I would say functioning democracy is a great help to the poor and the marginalised. More so than an extensive benefits system or well funded public services.
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
And good points, too, from AJS-.It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
AJS- said:
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
So you disagree with the view that in registering what is in effect an anti-Tory protest vote, the 'poor' (for want of a better word) have been unable to grasp the significance of what they are doing? Because the alternative seem to be that they have willingly voted in BoJo and Gove. And that seems a tad far-fetched does it not?(Usual caveat on generalising applies, naturally.)
AJS- said:
That depends on your point of view. I would say functioning democracy is a great help to the poor and the marginalised. More so than an extensive benefits system or well funded public services.
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
Great post. The hypocrisy, irony and basic two-faced nature of how shallow people operate, while thinking it's OK, beggars belief. My only other comment is that their views turned out to be more fashioable than thought, Leave won. Obviously still not fashioable with bien pensant know-all left-liberals. This is clearly not a smear on left-liberals who are not bien-pensant know-alls, and the rest are fair game for fair criticism.It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
minimoog said:
AJS- said:
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
So you disagree with the view that in registering what is in effect an anti-Tory protest vote...(Usual caveat on generalising applies, naturally.)
You and other excuse manufacturers have absolutely no idea. It's a made-up line to fit your needs.
The ballot paper stated Remain in the EU or Leave and the overall result was that people voted to Leave.
The rest is fairytales. As Corbyn is now demonstrating, nobody knows how somebody else voted, nor why, nor how they feel about it now, any views expressed can all be manufactured to taste.
turbobloke said:
minimoog said:
AJS- said:
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
So you disagree with the view that in registering what is in effect an anti-Tory protest vote...(Usual caveat on generalising applies, naturally.)
You and other excuse manufacturers have absolutely no idea. It's a made-up line to fit your needs.
The ballot paper stated Remain in the EU or Leave and the overall result was that people voted to Leave.
The rest is fairytales. As Corbyn is now demonstrating, nobody knows how somebody else voted, nor why, nor how they feel about it now, any views expressed can all be manufactured to taste.
Next!
minimoog said:
turbobloke said:
minimoog said:
AJS- said:
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
So you disagree with the view that in registering what is in effect an anti-Tory protest vote...(Usual caveat on generalising applies, naturally.)
You and other excuse manufacturers have absolutely no idea. It's a made-up line to fit your needs.
The ballot paper stated Remain in the EU or Leave and the overall result was that people voted to Leave.
The rest is fairytales. As Corbyn is now demonstrating, nobody knows how somebody else voted, nor why, nor how they feel about it now, any views expressed can all be manufactured to taste.
Apparently.....
The prime minister will set up a new team of civil servants inside the Cabinet Office, reporting to cabinet, to draw up options for Britain’s renegotiations with the rest of the EU, his spokesman has announced.
The unit, which will also include officials from the foreign office and the Treasury, will carry out preliminary work, which could be handed to an incoming prime minister when the Conservatives’ leadership race is complete.
“What the civil service is there to do is to make sure that we prepare, as much as the civil service can, for a new prime minister,” she said.
Cameron’s troubleshooter Oliver Letwin will also be given a new “facilitative role”, consulting across government and with experts about the options.
So those asking for what happens next have something of a response. I noted in passing there's no option for a second referendum with its task force. Never mind, the EU might pull something out of Juncker's hat but it's not looking likely and Bliar is more likely to be wrong yet again. He deserves a prize.
The prime minister will set up a new team of civil servants inside the Cabinet Office, reporting to cabinet, to draw up options for Britain’s renegotiations with the rest of the EU, his spokesman has announced.
The unit, which will also include officials from the foreign office and the Treasury, will carry out preliminary work, which could be handed to an incoming prime minister when the Conservatives’ leadership race is complete.
“What the civil service is there to do is to make sure that we prepare, as much as the civil service can, for a new prime minister,” she said.
Cameron’s troubleshooter Oliver Letwin will also be given a new “facilitative role”, consulting across government and with experts about the options.
So those asking for what happens next have something of a response. I noted in passing there's no option for a second referendum with its task force. Never mind, the EU might pull something out of Juncker's hat but it's not looking likely and Bliar is more likely to be wrong yet again. He deserves a prize.
minimoog said:
AJS- said:
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
So you disagree with the view that in registering what is in effect an anti-Tory protest vote, the 'poor' (for want of a better word) have been unable to grasp the significance of what they are doing? Because the alternative seem to be that they have willingly voted in BoJo and Gove. And that seems a tad far-fetched does it not?(Usual caveat on generalising applies, naturally.)
The majority just voted to make sure labour never got anywhere near No:10.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Monday 27th June 14:23
MikeT66 said:
Great post, NRS – views I agree with. Over the weekend I was appalled at some of the comments from so-called ‘educated’ people on Mrs.T66’s FB account – especially from those in academia - so much for all voices having an equal say, which is the standard for a true democracy. As stated previously, it was a case of all ‘Leave’ voters were nothing but ill-educated, knuckle-dragging right-wing racists. I tried to have a reasoned debate with a couple of posters, highlighting my somewhat left-wing stance exemplified by Tony Benn’s thoughts on the EU (after someone called me a right-wing fascist!), but it made no difference – I still ‘apparently’ didn’t know what I was doing in voting to quit the EU.
Personally, I have always tried to understand views that I don’t agree with. Maybe if those with bigoted views were properly engaged with and understood, we might actually get somewhere – is there a reasoned viewpoint behind it? Maybe a fight for housing, jobs, healthcare or education that the middle-class elite do not see nor relate to? It doesn’t make blaming ‘foreigners’ right (blaming the policy that overwhelms already-stretched social services is the key), but it would help with understanding and real problem-solving.
I am lucky enough to be in a very well paying job with a lot of security, and yet despite having grown up in a very poor family that wasn't able to take foreign holidays etc I do notice I often completely forget about the issues people in that situation face. For those who have been middle class their whole lives I think it's almost impossible to understand the situation faced by the real poor in society. The problem is small changes have very little real impact on the middle class as there is enough money to adapt to it. It just results in some complaining about perhaps not being able to afford a night out each month or changing the Sky package. Therefore things continuing as normal is not a problem. However those same changes have a massive effect on the person struggling by each week as they're in such a difficult place already. So eventually it has ended up in the situation where a lot of those people are willing to take the risk of having a major change and an uncertain future versus the issues they have been facing previously. Since the middle class didn't see the issues faced by the poorer in society caused the status quo previously they have then been completely shocked by the effective revolution. For them on a person level they do not want the current situation to change because they could lose out a lot more than previously. Thus it has ended up with a choice of accepting there is a growing inequality that needs dealt with, or just blaming the poor (who they may feel they have looked after due to giving to charity, the homeless person etc). Hence the big outcry we see again those "stupid ignorant people who had no idea of what they were voting for". Yes, it is true a lot had no idea on what they were voting for, but it was because of the current situation that they felt driven to that place. And the reality is none of us really understand what we were voting for - both for and against.Personally, I have always tried to understand views that I don’t agree with. Maybe if those with bigoted views were properly engaged with and understood, we might actually get somewhere – is there a reasoned viewpoint behind it? Maybe a fight for housing, jobs, healthcare or education that the middle-class elite do not see nor relate to? It doesn’t make blaming ‘foreigners’ right (blaming the policy that overwhelms already-stretched social services is the key), but it would help with understanding and real problem-solving.
AJS- said:
That depends on your point of view. I would say functioning democracy is a great help to the poor and the marginalised. More so than an extensive benefits system or well funded public services.
It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
And good points, too, from AJS-.It's very telling that so many who are champions of the poor when it comes to benefits and public spending suddenly have utter contempt for the views of the poor when they have unfashionable views.
Pan Pan Pan said:
No more so than believing that people voted tory at the last general election because they might get a referendum on membership of the EU.
The majority just voted to make sure labour never got anywhere near No:10.
Yes but they had a choice between voting Tory or UKIP to achieve that, so the Tories nicked UKIPs USP to steal votes from them. Why else would Cameron the Remainer have offered one? So in that sense people did vote Tory to get a referendum. Plenty more stuck with UKIP anyway of course. The majority just voted to make sure labour never got anywhere near No:10.
NRS said:
I am lucky enough to be in a very well paying job with a lot of security, and yet despite having grown up in a very poor family that wasn't able to take foreign holidays etc I do notice I often completely forget about the issues people in that situation face. For those who have been middle class their whole lives I think it's almost impossible to understand the situation faced by the real poor in society. The problem is small changes have very little real impact on the middle class as there is enough money to adapt to it. It just results in some complaining about perhaps not being able to afford a night out each month or changing the Sky package. Therefore things continuing as normal is not a problem. However those same changes have a massive effect on the person struggling by each week as they're in such a difficult place already. So eventually it has ended up in the situation where a lot of those people are willing to take the risk of having a major change and an uncertain future versus the issues they have been facing previously. Since the middle class didn't see the issues faced by the poorer in society caused the status quo previously they have then been completely shocked by the effective revolution. For them on a person level they do not want the current situation to change because they could lose out a lot more than previously. Thus it has ended up with a choice of accepting there is a growing inequality that needs dealt with, or just blaming the poor (who they may feel they have looked after due to giving to charity, the homeless person etc). Hence the big outcry we see again those "stupid ignorant people who had no idea of what they were voting for". Yes, it is true a lot had no idea on what they were voting for, but it was because of the current situation that they felt driven to that place. And the reality is none of us really understand what we were voting for - both for and against.
Yes, I agree again, NRS – a very reasoned post. One of my fears, especially, is the rise of the far-right – even in Germany, where events from the last century made this return almost unthinkable. But as Tony Benn commented, “Nationalism is built out of frustration that people feel when they cannot get their way through the ballot box” – even if this vote was a ‘protest’ vote only, the Government and EU really need to take a close look at what is happening in Europe right now in order to change direction. Parallels with a disenfranchised and ignored populace of Europe in the 1930’s are very, very scary.NRS said:
I am lucky enough to be in a very well paying job with a lot of security, and yet despite having grown up in a very poor family that wasn't able to take foreign holidays etc I do notice I often completely forget about the issues people in that situation face. For those who have been middle class their whole lives I think it's almost impossible to understand the situation faced by the real poor in society. The problem is small changes have very little real impact on the middle class as there is enough money to adapt to it. It just results in some complaining about perhaps not being able to afford a night out each month or changing the Sky package. Therefore things continuing as normal is not a problem. However those same changes have a massive effect on the person struggling by each week as they're in such a difficult place already. So eventually it has ended up in the situation where a lot of those people are willing to take the risk of having a major change and an uncertain future versus the issues they have been facing previously. Since the middle class didn't see the issues faced by the poorer in society caused the status quo previously they have then been completely shocked by the effective revolution. For them on a person level they do not want the current situation to change because they could lose out a lot more than previously. Thus it has ended up with a choice of accepting there is a growing inequality that needs dealt with, or just blaming the poor (who they may feel they have looked after due to giving to charity, the homeless person etc). Hence the big outcry we see again those "stupid ignorant people who had no idea of what they were voting for". Yes, it is true a lot had no idea on what they were voting for, but it was because of the current situation that they felt driven to that place. And the reality is none of us really understand what we were voting for - both for and against.
Don't disagree with any of that. For context I'm lower-middle class from generations of shipbuilders and steel workers. I don't have a wonderful job but it's ok and pays the bills. Although it's just got a lot more precarious thanks to this decision, which puts an edge on my outlook. Up to voting day I was in two minds which way to go, because I can see the structural issues with EU governance and accountability, and I'd be a fool not to be wary of a totally open-door policy with the way things are shaping up in the east end of the (wannabe) eurobloc. I can empathise with the protest voters very well, because I'm a good education away from being on the streets of Hartlepool being asked why I'm a Leaver myself. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff