The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
mattmurdock said:
the EU can reform based on the member states wanting them to, which is surely an argument against the 'unelected bureaucracy' hypothesis.
The EU debated whether to be democratically elected and decided that was a Bad Idea and that the elite, who know better than the electorate on every issue, will not be subject to election.That will never change.
mybrainhurts said:
mattmurdock said:
the EU can reform based on the member states wanting them to, which is surely an argument against the 'unelected bureaucracy' hypothesis.
The EU debated whether to be democratically elected and decided that was a Bad Idea and that the elite, who know better than the electorate on every issue, will not be subject to election.That will never change.
chris watton said:
mybrainhurts said:
mattmurdock said:
the EU can reform based on the member states wanting them to, which is surely an argument against the 'unelected bureaucracy' hypothesis.
The EU debated whether to be democratically elected and decided that was a Bad Idea and that the elite, who know better than the electorate on every issue, will not be subject to election.That will never change.
mattmurdock said:
turbobloke said:
That's so what. It's still 50+ in 3, which I acknowledged as not 50 in 1 but on the way. How will it happen at all unless owners/landlords break the law?
All-told, the events at each of the links were reasonable in the way they were used.
Unfortunately as usual for you TB, you respond to critical analysis with speculation and then state your position as the correct one.All-told, the events at each of the links were reasonable in the way they were used.
With the EU there's always the matter of interpretation due to the acknowledged tactic of playing the long game, leaving something loosely worded lying around, then when nobody notices and kicks up a fuss due to making the interpretive mistake of thinking that the EU is benign rather than a megalomaniac collective, it's too late as the power grab has already worked.
Juncker said:
We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
mattmurdock said:
I have often thought you were a critical thinker TB, but this nonsense is making me reconsider.
Of course you're reconsidering, and your independent unbiased consideration is bound to get the right answer.The critical bit you don't like is when my thinking is critical of something you posted, but this is just a discussion and not personal until you make it so with jibes, as above. I disagree with you, but manage somehow not to claim your faculties have gone awol.
We'll never know what would have happened with the EU's UN power grab, which is good from my perspective.
mybrainhurts said:
chris watton said:
mybrainhurts said:
mattmurdock said:
the EU can reform based on the member states wanting them to, which is surely an argument against the 'unelected bureaucracy' hypothesis.
The EU debated whether to be democratically elected and decided that was a Bad Idea and that the elite, who know better than the electorate on every issue, will not be subject to election.That will never change.
So the people who live and work within the EU countries can lobby their elected representatives to get them out, just like we can lobby our MPs if we think a civil servant is overstepping their authority.
turbobloke said:
Of course you're reconsidering, and your independent unbiased consideration is bound to get the right answer.
The critical bit you don't like is when my thinking is critical of something you posted, but this is just a discussion and not personal until you make it so with jibes, as above. I disagree with you, but manage somehow not to claim your faculties have gone awol.
We'll never know what would have happened with the EU's UN power grab, which is good from my perspective.
Posting some news stories and a bit of emotional rhetoric isn't demonstrating critical thinking TB, surely you know that?The critical bit you don't like is when my thinking is critical of something you posted, but this is just a discussion and not personal until you make it so with jibes, as above. I disagree with you, but manage somehow not to claim your faculties have gone awol.
We'll never know what would have happened with the EU's UN power grab, which is good from my perspective.
Surely you can acknowledge that your personal interpretation of the EU is introducing some bias?
After all, as you have often said about climate change, a few news stories about extreme weather and some emotional rhetoric about big oil destroying the world does not demonstrate critical thinking. Looking at the actual evidence is what's needed.
And the actual evidence is that the UN ignored the EU in 2011 and it ignored the EU in 2015. Because writing a paper saying you want something to happen and getting your own people to endorse it doesn't magically change anything.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
A new low has been achieved; for several weeks various news programmes have sent out reporters to find gullible EU migrants that can be frightened with lurid threats of deportation in the event of brexit and provide some colourful(and editorially biased) filler material, with a significant increase in this style of report since the vote, but Channel 4 have topped all of them this evening. They sent a reporter into a primary school and scared children of EU migrants with deportation, an act of depravity I have never seen on broadcast television; is this what the media have come to? Deliberately frightening children for sensation is a disgusting act and they should be ashamed of themselves, I have complained to Ofcom and I hope others will do the same. I'm almost as disgusted with the headteacher who allowed this to happen but there's no ready path for me to complain about him.
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
How can that be, we've been told that the EU is outplaying us, by a Remainian as it happens.They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
The quotes must be made up.
hidetheelephants said:
A new low has been achieved; for several weeks various news programmes have sent out reporters to find gullible EU migrants that can be frightened with lurid threats of deportation in the event of brexit and provide some colourful(and editorially biased) filler material, with a significant increase in this style of report since the vote, but Channel 4 have topped all of them this evening. They sent a reporter into a primary school and scared children of EU migrants with deportation, an act of depravity I have never seen on broadcast television; is this what the media have come to? Deliberately frightening children for sensation is a disgusting act and they should be ashamed of themselves, I have complained to Ofcom and I hope others will do the same. I'm almost as disgusted with the headteacher who allowed this to happen but there's no ready path for me to complain about him.
If you think that this behaviour fails to safeguard the well-being of children at the school you can complain to Ofsted immediately on the basis of inadequate safeguarding of pupils - use that phrase if it's a valid description of what was done - I didn't see what went on but it sounds as though this is the case and you would be right to complain.Otherwise, complain via the headteacher first, then the governing body, then if/when you're fobbed off contact Ofsted and the Department for Education simultaneously, mentioning the earlier complaints as unresolved.
Contact details are available online for both Ofsted and DfE or post again when/if you need details.
Immigration was an issue at the last general election and was an issue in the recent referendum, so is anything going to be done about addressing the issue with the public or are we going to just kick this particular can down the road for a bit longer?
Maybe people re racists, maybe they are not. Maybe there is an issue, maybe there isn't, but either that, there was concern, so the issue needs addressing.
Maybe people re racists, maybe they are not. Maybe there is an issue, maybe there isn't, but either that, there was concern, so the issue needs addressing.
Willy Nilly said:
Immigration was an issue at the last general election and was an issue in the recent referendum, so is anything going to be done about addressing the issue with the public or are we going to just kick this particular can down the road for a bit longer?
Maybe people re racists, maybe they are not. Maybe there is an issue, maybe there isn't, but either that, there was concern, so the issue needs addressing.
Immigration is not the issue, it is the level of immigration & the type of immigration. A sensible government would reduce it 10's of thousands...... oh wait.Maybe people re racists, maybe they are not. Maybe there is an issue, maybe there isn't, but either that, there was concern, so the issue needs addressing.
That government's Referendum has been rejected.
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Won't the payment we make to trade with the single market simply be similar to our current net contribution, hence there will be no shortfall for the EU?They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Jockman said:
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Won't the payment we make to trade with the single market simply be similar to our current net contribution, hence there will be no shortfall for the EU?They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
loafer123 said:
Jockman said:
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Won't the payment we make to trade with the single market simply be similar to our current net contribution, hence there will be no shortfall for the EU?They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
loafer123 said:
Jockman said:
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Won't the payment we make to trade with the single market simply be similar to our current net contribution, hence there will be no shortfall for the EU?They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
The EU and the Germans don't think so, otherwise why the huftytufty over making up a shortfall?
mattmurdock said:
dandarez said:
mybrainhurts said:
Now a call, led by Germany, for EU to create an EU army.
Where have I heard that before?
You missed the important point in the document being talked about now!Where have I heard that before?
In terms of Turkish membership, the document is clear that it should happen as soon as possible.
At one point it outlines the EU’s desire to expand further, calling for a 'credible accession process' for the countries of the Western Balkans and Turkey.
Well, f. well, what do Remainians say about that then?
Are you saying that the EU only implements things that haven't had a strategy discussion beforehand?
The fact that a strategy document has been published means that it is being considered. It is a possibility. In fact, as the Union's stated aim is "ever closer union", a single defence force is inevitable.
Some of us tried to warn you that this would happen, and you mocked us. Now that the proposal has been published, you still want to mock us.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter at this stage. The EU is coming to an end. Britain has shown the way, and other countries will follow suit.
Spain is calling for the EU to write off some of Greece's debt. Of course, the EU cannot agree to this as Italy would follow within a week. However, the next Greek bailout is due in a few weeks, and if the EU doesn't take a haircut, then Greece may feel the need to give the EU a haircut - and Grexit.
Denmark isn't happy, and Sweden has closer ties with the UK than with the EU.
Most of Ireland's trade is with the UK, although they still think that the EU is fantastic. They will begin to ponder reality as the months go by.
don4l said:
I don't understand your point.
Are you saying that the EU only implements things that haven't had a strategy discussion beforehand?
The fact that a strategy document has been published means that it is being considered. It is a possibility. In fact, as the Union's stated aim is "ever closer union", a single defence force is inevitable.
Some of us tried to warn you that this would happen, and you mocked us. Now that the proposal has been published, you still want to mock us.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter at this stage. The EU is coming to an end. Britain has shown the way, and other countries will follow suit.
Spain is calling for the EU to write off some of Greece's debt. Of course, the EU cannot agree to this as Italy would follow within a week. However, the next Greek bailout is due in a few weeks, and if the EU doesn't take a haircut, then Greece may feel the need to give the EU a haircut - and Grexit.
Denmark isn't happy, and Sweden has closer ties with the UK than with the EU.
Most of Ireland's trade is with the UK, although they still think that the EU is fantastic. They will begin to ponder reality as the months go by.
We should set up a breakaway Union - the Democratic Union of Europe - just a free trade zone.Are you saying that the EU only implements things that haven't had a strategy discussion beforehand?
The fact that a strategy document has been published means that it is being considered. It is a possibility. In fact, as the Union's stated aim is "ever closer union", a single defence force is inevitable.
Some of us tried to warn you that this would happen, and you mocked us. Now that the proposal has been published, you still want to mock us.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter at this stage. The EU is coming to an end. Britain has shown the way, and other countries will follow suit.
Spain is calling for the EU to write off some of Greece's debt. Of course, the EU cannot agree to this as Italy would follow within a week. However, the next Greek bailout is due in a few weeks, and if the EU doesn't take a haircut, then Greece may feel the need to give the EU a haircut - and Grexit.
Denmark isn't happy, and Sweden has closer ties with the UK than with the EU.
Most of Ireland's trade is with the UK, although they still think that the EU is fantastic. They will begin to ponder reality as the months go by.
turbobloke said:
loafer123 said:
Jockman said:
mybrainhurts said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684923/Brexit-...
They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
Won't the payment we make to trade with the single market simply be similar to our current net contribution, hence there will be no shortfall for the EU?They're fighting among themselves altready...
Which is nice...
The EU and the Germans don't think so, otherwise why the huftytufty over making up a shortfall?
I just don't trust what I read in the Express.
If the article were in your beloved Guardian, TB, I would show more confidence
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