The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[Sam All]

Good common sense stuff, but I fear the message will not land.

Edited by Sam All on Sunday 3rd July 18:55

[sidicks]

Trabi601 said:

Oil price as a result of EU climate change policy. Very little impact. The terms of how we consume the fuel has a tiny impact on the trading moves on the billions of barrels traded daily. However, market uncertainty and volatility had an immediate impact on the price.

Price to the consumer has changed thanks to dubious Climate Change policies.

What happened to the oil price as a result of Brexit?

Trabi601 said:

As for immigrant labour - I see lots of arguments from Brexiters about points systems, stopping EU immigration, etc - that's what UKIP fight upon and what has captured a big chunk of the working class vote. How much unrest will there be if we exit, but the immigration policies don't change? - how many in the working classes will feel let down by the vote? - 'we voted for controlling immigration, but nothing has changed'.

You do understand the difference between controlling immigration and stopping immigration, don't you?

Edited by sidicks on Sunday 3rd July 18:51

[Oakey]

jjlynn27 said:

Did you actually read that?

“It’s very hard to fight NHS privatisation at home if the EU is constantly pushing for privatisation.”

What privatisation did EU 'constantly push' on NHS?

I suspect he may be referring to TTIP?

[Trabi601]

sidicks said:

You do understand the difference between controlling immigration and stopping immigration, don't you?

Slip of the fingers.

[sidicks]

Trabi601 said:

sidicks said:

You do understand the difference between controlling immigration and stopping immigration, don't you?

Slip of the fingers.

Fair enough, But it's fundamentally different (and very important)!

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Adios, adieu, and goodbye Mr Juncker, you will not be missed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-...

[chris watton]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Adios, adieu, and goodbye Mr Juncker, you will not be missed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-...

Reading that, it does seem that Merkel, the German Chancellor is the head of the EU - or at least calls the shots!

[Sam All]

Excellent development . So Frau Merkel is really in charge.

[jjlynn27]

Oakey said:

jjlynn27 said:

Did you actually read that?

“It’s very hard to fight NHS privatisation at home if the EU is constantly pushing for privatisation.”

What privatisation did EU 'constantly push' on NHS?

I suspect he may be referring to TTIP?

TTIP - equivalent has been part of the paper by Hunt, Carswell et all in 2005. If anything, from admittedly limited knowledge, UK was one of the main driving forces behind it, while Frenchies were objecting.

If that article was about anything bar EU it would be summarily dismissed here as leftie propaganda.

[London424]

jjlynn27 said:

Mr. White said:

HappyMidget said:

At least one remainder is starting to understand https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-want-to-stop-s...

Wonderful, thank you. I've just posted that on Facebook with an instruction for my smug remain voting, labour voting working class heroes to read it.

Did you actually read that?

“It’s very hard to fight NHS privatisation at home if the EU is constantly pushing for privatisation.”

What privatisation did EU 'constantly push' on NHS?

I could be wrong but I thought that the EU wanted to open up all 'public services' to competition from any other EU country. Hence why the post office was sold off etc.

Could be wrong though.

[steveatesh]

Trabi601 said:

Oil price as a result of EU climate change policy. Very little impact. The terms of how we consume the fuel has a tiny impact on the trading moves on the billions of barrels traded daily. However, market uncertainty and volatility had an immediate impact on the price.

As for immigrant labour - I see lots of arguments from Brexiters about points systems, stopping EU immigration, etc - that's what UKIP fight upon and what has captured a big chunk of the working class vote. How much unrest will there be if we exit, but the immigration policies don't change? - how many in the working classes will feel let down by the vote? - 'we voted for controlling immigration, but nothing has changed'.

Seems Brexit made up a load of promises that they thought people wanted to hear, without knowing if they can be delivered.

Personally I didn't listen to the official Brexit campaign, or Vote Leave, I got my sources elsewhere. In my view both sides of the campaign were equally as bad as each other, with threats and doom related sky will fall in nonsense on one side and dodgy arguments (and that's being kind to them) on the other.

My leave vote was based on Europe being the only continent which was not growing ( along with Antartica I believe) economically, the growing importance of world trade bodies such as WTO and Codex in global markets, the diminishing role of the EU in global trade and even European trade, the EU being more and more a middle man in merely implementing stuff making it an anachronism, the fact that we had no place at the global negotiations (but Norway does), that position was likely to put us at a disadvantage in the years ahead, and that once we are free we will be able to negotiate and have more influence on a global scale than we do now (I'm talking trade context).

Then there was the incessant move for federalisation, and in my view no democratic accountability, and the likelihood of the Euro collapsing which we would have to pick up some pieces, if we stay.

And for me as with any investment, I took a view. My view was that although there may be short term rough waters we would sail through them into a nice calm sea and make more progress than we would if we remained anchored to an outdated, inward looking anachronism from another age.

So nothing for me about immigration, nothing for me about money we give the EU. It was an investment decision based on my view of the state of the world now and it's direction of travel in the context of trade and the likely future over the next decade or so.

You made your decision, I made mine. Time will tell who is right. In the meantime I'll pick up the name calling (white, middle aged, northern city but well off and well educated so don't entirely first the profile remainers are using).

Ultimately remain lost and the sooner you ( and the BBC and Tony Blair) accept that the better.

I suppose you could emigrate before we actually leave if you feel so strongly about it?

[jjlynn27]

London424 said:

I could be wrong but I thought that the EU wanted to open up all 'public services' to competition from any other EU country. Hence why the post office was sold off etc.

Could be wrong though.

Only thing that I could find is push for TTIP. Heavily pushed forward by UK.

Read the article if you didn't. Very 'lefty' piece, with social divide and everything else that goes with it.

[sherbertdip]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Adios, adieu, and goodbye Mr Juncker, you will not be missed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-...

i wouldn't pop the Asti-Spew cork just yet, did you really read it or just the headline?

"Angela Merkel could move to oust Europe’s federalist chief Jean-Claude Juncker 'within the next year', a Germany government minister has said"

"“The pressure on him [Juncker] to resign will only become greater and Chancellor Merkel will eventually have to deal with this next year,” an unnamed German minister told The Sunday Times"

[jjlynn27]

steveatesh said:

Personally I didn't listen to the official Brexit campaign, or Vote Leave, I got my sources elsewhere. In my view both sides of the campaign were equally as bad as each other, with threats and doom related sky will fall in nonsense on one side and dodgy arguments (and that's being kind to them) on the other.

My leave vote was based on Europe being the only continent which was not growing ( along with Antartica I believe) economically, the growing importance of world trade bodies such as WTO and Codex in global markets, the diminishing role of the EU in global trade and even European trade, the EU being more and more a middle man in merely implementing stuff making it an anachronism, the fact that we had no place at the global negotiations (but Norway does), that position was likely to put us at a disadvantage in the years ahead, and that once we are free we will be able to negotiate and have more influence on a global scale than we do now (I'm talking trade context).

Then there was the incessant move for federalisation, and in my view no democratic accountability, and the likelihood of the Euro collapsing which we would have to pick up some pieces, if we stay.

And for me as with any investment, I took a view. My view was that although there may be short term rough waters we would sail through them into a nice calm sea and make more progress than we would if we remained anchored to an outdated, inward looking anachronism from another age.

So nothing for me about immigration, nothing for me about money we give the EU. It was an investment decision based on my view of the state of the world now and it's direction of travel in the context of trade and the likely future over the next decade or so.

You made your decision, I made mine. Time will tell who is right. In the meantime I'll pick up the name calling (white, middle aged, northern city but well off and well educated so don't entirely first the profile remainers are using).

Ultimately remain lost and the sooner you ( and the BBC and Tony Blair) accept that the better.

I suppose you could emigrate before we actually leave if you feel so strongly about it?

Well reasoned.

I don't understand the part of winning/losing. Whatever transpires to be the way forward, we'll all be better/worse off than we are.
As for name calling, it did went on both side of the argument. At the end of the day each of us knows our education levels, age and whatever else was mentioned.

May I ask what is your, personal, favourite way forward (norway/wto/something else)?
My preference at this stage would be any option that allows access to single market, if only while we negotiate other deals.

[gizlaroc]

The problem with Trabi601 and all the other 'remainers' is they can't see passed their next pay check as far as I can work out.

They make out they care about the future but in reality future means next years wages.

It all comes across as "But I want to know I will be OK still".

What about knowing everyone is OK?

Look, I am Tory through and through, but the EU is making me feel more and more like I need to stop and look at what I honestly believe is right, because it is looking after the big boys at the expense of everyone else in a way that is, imho, bordering on criminal.


This is actually a very good article, and worth reading...

https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-want-to-stop-s...



I can't see how anyone can honestly not see how the EU as a business is collapsing. Most parts of it are insolvent, if it were a company it would have been closed down by now.

Mr Juncker is, and always has been, desperate to build this one nation, where he will sit and dictate to. Why would anyone in the UK want that?

[Sam All]

Agreed, the wallet has trumped the head and heart.

[chris watton]

Sam All said:

Agreed, the wallet has trumped the head and heart.

Agreed.

I think I am one of the very few who actually thought about the bigger picture, and voted leave, despite it being against my own financial interests (possibly). I work solely for an Italian manufacturer, and have been designing stuff for them for 15 years now. In their last email to me, they expressed concern about our future should we have a successful Brexit vote. I voted out anyway, thinking it would be better for the UK, long-term. If worse comes to the worse and I can no longer work for this company, I will simply find something else to do. But I could not in all good conscience, vote stay.
I would have not minded too much if the vote had gone the other way, for obvious reasons. But I know that at least my conscience would be clear that I did not vote for narrow-minded selfishness.

Edited by chris watton on Sunday 3rd July 19:52

[Sam All]

[QuantumTokoloshi]

sherbertdip said:

i wouldn't pop the Asti-Spew cork just yet, did you really read it or just the headline?

"Angela Merkel could move to oust Europe’s federalist chief Jean-Claude Juncker 'within the next year', a Germany government minister has said"

"“The pressure on him [Juncker] to resign will only become greater and Chancellor Merkel will eventually have to deal with this next year,” an unnamed German minister told The Sunday Times"

I did read it, hence why I posted it. That timing is good for the UK, as we most likely, will be in the initial phases of our negotiations at that point.

If Juncker has a target on his back from Germany. I doubt he can survive it, a less virulently more EU and petulant alternative is good for the UK at this point.

I suspect Merkel might bring this forward, as she has an election next year, get someone before that, is probably a good idea.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 3rd July 20:08

[Sam All]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

I did read it, hence why I posted it. That timing is good for the UK, as we most likely, will be in the initial phases of our negotiations at that point.

If Juncker has a target on his back from Germany. I doubt he can survive it.

I expect regime change will occur sooner than that.