The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
If the UK votes to remain, the first thing I want to see, is the extra billions of UK tax payers cash given away by Bliar, being paid back to the UK for the changes to the CAP which never happened as the EU reneged on that deal.
The UK`s EU ongoing rebate then should be returned to the level secured by Margaret Thatcher. If they cannot, or will not do that, how can I believe that the EU is anything other than a corrupt, dishonest, money grabbing unaccountable pile of filth, that all sane, honest people of all member states should be thinking of steering well clear of.
I wont be holding my breath on that one.
The UK`s EU ongoing rebate then should be returned to the level secured by Margaret Thatcher. If they cannot, or will not do that, how can I believe that the EU is anything other than a corrupt, dishonest, money grabbing unaccountable pile of filth, that all sane, honest people of all member states should be thinking of steering well clear of.
I wont be holding my breath on that one.
wc98 said:
CaptainSlow said:
turbobloke said:
ISWYM but it's curious that a group that's likely to be better educated on average are so willing to fall for Cameron's terminological inexactitudes and are unwilling to see the bigger picture beyond short-termisn. This sounds like a case of willingly worn blinkers.
I'd argue that the more educated are more used to believing what they are told.LibDem IN leaflet put through door.
What has EU done for us? Various soundbites:
1st - "EU forced scrapping of mobile phone roaming charges"
lots of drivel: blood, beaches, water, holidays, energy, discrimination, grants, arts funding, eagles, EU arrest warrant, CBI/Recession,
Last - 70 years without major European war.
Pathetic IMO.
What has EU done for us? Various soundbites:
1st - "EU forced scrapping of mobile phone roaming charges"
lots of drivel: blood, beaches, water, holidays, energy, discrimination, grants, arts funding, eagles, EU arrest warrant, CBI/Recession,
Last - 70 years without major European war.
Pathetic IMO.
Mr_B said:
amgmcqueen said:
I find it incredible that the IN campaign truly believe the EU can be reformed!
They don't. People like //ajd saying 'stay but reform from within' is just a little bit of BS they tell themselves, to placate themselves.This vote will be decided by the 99% of the public who think the EU needs serious reform, but vote remain anyway knowing it won't happen.
Finding someone here with the honesty to stand up and say even if it stays as is, remaining in the EU is a good thing , is near impossible. It only smacks of a bad episode of EastEnders where a punch bag wife sticks with some guy saying he loves me and he doesn't mean it and thinking things will change if given another chance.
I believe strongly that the EU can be reformed. It's happened many times before; Rome, Maastricht, Lisbon etc so why should it not happen again. Granted it might not be the type of reform that you would like but to say it is incapable of reform is clearly untrue. It's also certain of course that short of starting up our own UKEU then there is no way that we will be able to participate in any reform from the outside.
I don't really accept any of the economic arguments from either side. No one can know what will happen if we leave, or indeed stay. It seems to me that the UK has done reasonably well over the past few years compared to most Western economies and I don't believe that any current political party could possibly change that significantly for the better in or out. Although I think there are a few that could do a lot of damage and that might get elected if the Tories disintegrate.
Immigration is also a weak issue for me. I think as a country we could do more to keep benefit migrants out. Where I live I currently receive some benefits that would be unobtainable by anyone who hadn't paid into the system for some time before. Yes this does exclude young people entering the job market for the first time but maybe that isn't such a disaster either. It might be politically unacceptable in the UK but I'm sure it would have an impact.
The only issue for me is sovereignty/diplomacy. The EU's diplomacy is undoubtedly flawed, although many of the reforms that have occurred have tended to strengthen it rather than weaken it so maybe there's some hope. But I don't see that the UK is such a shining example either. I can't remember when I last voted for anyone in the House of Lords - I must have been out of the country when that happened, but they still retain a lot of power to interfere with legislation.
I've voted in I think 7 elections and I've only ever voted for a winning party once (don't try to work it out I vote on issues not party) and even in that instance my vote didn't help the candidate in my constituency who didn't get elected through the FPTP system. Seems to me, at least personally, that UK democracy isn't so great either.
Ultimately I feel that we express our sovereignty by holding this referendum. If we want to we can vote out and leave and decide for our selves. For sure if we are forced into joining the Euro in the future then Out would have my vote as it would in some of the other wilder examples mentioned in the thread. Also for those in doubt if the vote is Out and they try to have another referendum I will also vote Out. The most important thing a democracy can do is listen to the clearly expressed opinion of the people. In this case it means acting on a referendum result, whichever way it goes.
amgmcqueen said:
I find it incredible that the IN campaign truly believe the EU can be reformed! I think Dave 'I won't pay a single penny' Cameron's pathetic, cringeworthy....
Nah. Way off mate.The truly incredible bit is Dave saying that he's actually reformed it, and expecting us to believe it.
Edited by Cobnapint on Tuesday 24th May 16:48
when Dave goes. You know onto pastures greener. How long will it be before he has a position in the EU or in one of their quangos do you reckon?
Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
superlightr said:
when Dave goes. You know onto pastures greener. How long will it be before he has a position in the EU or in one of their quangos do you reckon?
Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
When Dave goes he'll be giving lectures to Goldman Sachs, BP and the likes at £150,000+ per hour. He won't need an EU post like people such as Kinnock.Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
Mr_B said:
I see you still can't actually comment on the things you pick an argument on. The again, you did the same when you declared Germany unanimously in favour of taking millions of migrants because you read 4 German PH peeps telling you the early wave of immigration was greeted positively.
People might be able to get a flavour of your level just seeing what you want to see from this alone.
People, indeed, should 'get a flavour'. I forgot about your idiocy in that thread. It was explained to you that unanimous was related to those four posters. All four posters, unanimously, expressed same view, which I chose to believe over knuckledraggers quoting express. Not Germany unanimous as a whole, as there is nothing that 80mil people living in Germany would be unanimous on. So you are lying. As simple as that. Thanks for the reminder though, gave me another laugh. People might be able to get a flavour of your level just seeing what you want to see from this alone.
Mr_B said:
It's no too hard to understand. Outside of the EU, our Turkey loving PM can just do a trade deal and Turks can apply to come and live and work here just the same as a hundred plus other countries can.
Inside the EU, our Turkey loving PM and his Turkey loving mates in the EU have a far higher chance of accepting them into the EU with possibly no restrictions. The EU is already happy to do a deal in panic to shove huge sums of money their way and possibly grant visa free access to the Euro zone, apparently to appease all those Turks desperate to holiday in the EU. Guess with net contributor EU country gets to fund that desperate EU bribe to Turkey. Oh yeah, its us.
I'm afraid within the EU it's far easier to push decisions on a dumb public by getting your government department to give a bulls
t assessment of why its nothing to worry about. In 2004 the same thing happened by letting half of eastern Europe have unrestricted access to the UK on a claim that only 13K a year will come. Had we been out of the EU, who would be demanding total unrestricted access otherwise ? You may look around and wonder why the government isn't calling for total unrestricted access for half of Africa. Why aren't they doing that ?
More drivel. I doubt that Cameron cares either way about Turkey. Cameron, despite blinkered on here saying that he is finished, managed to win election, despite scaremongering by kippers. Despite all those 26mil immigrants coming to get British jobs. Despite Farage disciples predicting upto 20 to 30 seats, as the 'will of the people will be heard', Cameron, democratically managed to wipe the floor with the clown & co. And, in a way force clown to do, oh so embarrassing, 'unresign cause they didn't accept my resignation' fiasco. Visas are to access Schengen Area not 'Euro Zone'. Do you understand the difference? Public is not dumb, they just demonstrably don't share your blinkered views. At least not enough to get more than 1 MP. Who'd walk it even if he stood for pastafarians.Inside the EU, our Turkey loving PM and his Turkey loving mates in the EU have a far higher chance of accepting them into the EU with possibly no restrictions. The EU is already happy to do a deal in panic to shove huge sums of money their way and possibly grant visa free access to the Euro zone, apparently to appease all those Turks desperate to holiday in the EU. Guess with net contributor EU country gets to fund that desperate EU bribe to Turkey. Oh yeah, its us.
I'm afraid within the EU it's far easier to push decisions on a dumb public by getting your government department to give a bulls
t assessment of why its nothing to worry about. In 2004 the same thing happened by letting half of eastern Europe have unrestricted access to the UK on a claim that only 13K a year will come. Had we been out of the EU, who would be demanding total unrestricted access otherwise ? You may look around and wonder why the government isn't calling for total unrestricted access for half of Africa. Why aren't they doing that ?Mr_B said:
You edited your post from saying 'For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again' to include a whole lot more. I replied and quoted just this bit in my reply. Later on you whole a massive amount more. You couldn't even get this meaningless bit correct and wrote something about the need to correct your English. You don't even have a level of honesty when it comes to yourself, let alone debating the politics of scummy politicians and the EU.
No I didn't. The post still ends with "For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'."
Edit time is Mon 23, 15:18. There was nothing added after it.
Your post, quoting mine, is @ Mon 23, 15:24.
Show me otherwise. Both posts are still there with timestamps.
steveatesh said:
jjlynn27 said:
And? Brexiter unhappy not just with government but with the opposition too. How is that even remotely relevant to bs about UK not being able to veto Turkey joining EU?
There is an interesting take on the Turkey veto : http://mesynon.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/tory-ministe...
Basically the author claims that its not having the veto that is important but whether the Americans allow the UK (or another EU country) to use it. The Americans, apparently, want Turkey to be a member of the EU to tie them into the west and NATO and be a more reliable buffer with Russia.
To achieve this they would make various diplomatic threats until the vote Went the way the USA wanted.
This could, I suppose, go some way to explaining why Cameron has been pushing for Turkeys entry too the EU as a fast track (until of course for referendum purposes he wanted to suggest that Turkey would take years to become members).
Could be true, could be tin foil hat stuff but We never know what's going on behind the scenes do we?
Just a quick scan over that blog. Few bits, Turkey joined NATO together with Greece in 1952, if quick google in not deceiving me. They applied to join EEC in 1987, again quick google. I've spoken to someone who follows, in depth, what is happening with ascension of some states, and was told that Turkey satisfied 1 out of 38 condition for membership. In his opinion, not a chance in foreseeable future. As for American diplomatic pressure, if that was that important they'd exercise that already and since 1987 there were plenty of opportunities to join. Cameron is a politician and, in my opinion, says what he thinks people at the time want to hear. Or he could change opinion based on changed circumstances. I do however think that he's bright enough not to commit political suicide. People, on these very pages, were writing him off before 2015 GE. I did vote for Cons as the local MP is fantastic, and they are by far, the best bunch out of options. I very much disagree with handling on NHS but that's for another thread.
superlightr said:
when Dave goes. You know onto pastures greener. How long will it be before he has a position in the EU or in one of their quangos do you reckon?
Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
Hopefully, there won't be an EU so he'll have to do voluntary work hugging hoodies all day.Whats the payback for Dave? there must be something going on behind the curtains that has warped his loyalties. He has well and truly sold the UK out.
One things for sure, if we don't leave this time, I shall strongly consider UKIP at the next GE.
turbobloke said:
ISWYM but it's curious that a group that's likely to be better educated on average are so willing to fall for Cameron's terminological inexactitudes and are unwilling to see the bigger picture beyond short-termisn. This sounds like a case of willingly worn blinkers.
Speaks volumes for the education system then doesn't it?I juts love Burak, he's a classic. Lucky not be in jail these days. Well worth reading his articles, here is one from a week or 2 ago:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-not-so-cr...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-not-so-cr...
jjlynn27 said:
Hi Steve,
Just a quick scan over that blog. Few bits, Turkey joined NATO together with Greece in 1952, if quick google in not deceiving me. They applied to join EEC in 1987, again quick google. I've spoken to someone who follows, in depth, what is happening with ascension of some states, and was told that Turkey satisfied 1 out of 38 condition for membership. In his opinion, not a chance in foreseeable future. As for American diplomatic pressure, if that was that important they'd exercise that already and since 1987 there were plenty of opportunities to join. Cameron is a politician and, in my opinion, says what he thinks people at the time want to hear. Or he could change opinion based on changed circumstances. I do however think that he's bright enough not to commit political suicide. People, on these very pages, were writing him off before 2015 GE. I did vote for Cons as the local MP is fantastic, and they are by far, the best bunch out of options. I very much disagree with handling on NHS but that's for another thread.
I'm sure Greece joined NATO much much later, Turkey was a foundation member of NATO.Just a quick scan over that blog. Few bits, Turkey joined NATO together with Greece in 1952, if quick google in not deceiving me. They applied to join EEC in 1987, again quick google. I've spoken to someone who follows, in depth, what is happening with ascension of some states, and was told that Turkey satisfied 1 out of 38 condition for membership. In his opinion, not a chance in foreseeable future. As for American diplomatic pressure, if that was that important they'd exercise that already and since 1987 there were plenty of opportunities to join. Cameron is a politician and, in my opinion, says what he thinks people at the time want to hear. Or he could change opinion based on changed circumstances. I do however think that he's bright enough not to commit political suicide. People, on these very pages, were writing him off before 2015 GE. I did vote for Cons as the local MP is fantastic, and they are by far, the best bunch out of options. I very much disagree with handling on NHS but that's for another thread.
At the time there was major social unrest in Turkey and massive divisions as to whether to join, the government wanted to fight communism, a lot of the lefties were actively supporting the communist party. Bloody times in Turkey back then from what I read and am told.
Likes Fast Cars said:
jjlynn27 said:
Hi Steve,
Just a quick scan over that blog. Few bits, Turkey joined NATO together with Greece in 1952, if quick google in not deceiving me. They applied to join EEC in 1987, again quick google. I've spoken to someone who follows, in depth, what is happening with ascension of some states, and was told that Turkey satisfied 1 out of 38 condition for membership. In his opinion, not a chance in foreseeable future. As for American diplomatic pressure, if that was that important they'd exercise that already and since 1987 there were plenty of opportunities to join. Cameron is a politician and, in my opinion, says what he thinks people at the time want to hear. Or he could change opinion based on changed circumstances. I do however think that he's bright enough not to commit political suicide. People, on these very pages, were writing him off before 2015 GE. I did vote for Cons as the local MP is fantastic, and they are by far, the best bunch out of options. I very much disagree with handling on NHS but that's for another thread.
I'm sure Greece joined NATO much much later, Turkey was a foundation member of NATO.Just a quick scan over that blog. Few bits, Turkey joined NATO together with Greece in 1952, if quick google in not deceiving me. They applied to join EEC in 1987, again quick google. I've spoken to someone who follows, in depth, what is happening with ascension of some states, and was told that Turkey satisfied 1 out of 38 condition for membership. In his opinion, not a chance in foreseeable future. As for American diplomatic pressure, if that was that important they'd exercise that already and since 1987 there were plenty of opportunities to join. Cameron is a politician and, in my opinion, says what he thinks people at the time want to hear. Or he could change opinion based on changed circumstances. I do however think that he's bright enough not to commit political suicide. People, on these very pages, were writing him off before 2015 GE. I did vote for Cons as the local MP is fantastic, and they are by far, the best bunch out of options. I very much disagree with handling on NHS but that's for another thread.
At the time there was major social unrest in Turkey and massive divisions as to whether to join, the government wanted to fight communism, a lot of the lefties were actively supporting the communist party. Bloody times in Turkey back then from what I read and am told.
Some news on Christine "Embezzlement and Fraud" Lagarde that I hadn't seen:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/head-of-the-i...
Isn't she all for us Remaining? I shall in future file her advice appropriately.
Any others I should know of?
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/head-of-the-i...
Isn't she all for us Remaining? I shall in future file her advice appropriately.
Any others I should know of?
grumbledoak said:
Some news on Christine "Embezzlement and Fraud" Lagarde that I hadn't seen:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/head-of-the-i...
Isn't she all for us Remaining? I shall in future file her advice appropriately.
Any others I should know of?
She is part of the establishment - cannot possibly be found guilty. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/head-of-the-i...
Isn't she all for us Remaining? I shall in future file her advice appropriately.
Any others I should know of?
jjlynn27 said:
You are probably right, I just had quick scan. The thing about Turkey that I don't get is; we've been there on extended holiday and both in Istanbul, where we were for two weeks courtesy of lovely locals, and in Bodrum, not one person supported Erdogan. And they were quite open about it. Impression, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if I got it completely wrong, is that Erdogan's power base is middle, agricultural Turkey, while cities and coast is against him.
Nice to hear you know the Turkish mentality and have picked-up on it, and experienced the local hospitality first-hand.The problem now is even the cities are turning more to the neo-islamists (AKP & Erdogan) mainly due to corrupt dealings and "getting rich" on the back of under the table &/or nefarious dealings.
I live in Turkey, have been involved here one way or another for more than 10 years. Wife is Turkish (but has lived abroad for many years), she is no fan of the AKP and especially Erdogan. Most people like her are now at the point where staying here is no longer a serious option.
I posted a recent article by Burak Bekdil, a well-known Turkish journalist (who at one stage spent time in the UK) he is always a great read, very straight-forward and tells it like it is, this one may interest you:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/a-century-long-pa...
Likes Fast Cars said:
Nice to hear you know the Turkish mentality and have picked-up on it, and experienced the local hospitality first-hand.
The problem now is even the cities are turning more to the neo-islamists (AKP & Erdogan) mainly due to corrupt dealings and "getting rich" on the back of under the table &/or nefarious dealings.
I live in Turkey, have been involved here one way or another for more than 10 years. Wife is Turkish (but has lived abroad for many years), she is no fan of the AKP and especially Erdogan. Most people like her are now at the point where staying here is no longer a serious option.
I posted a recent article by Burak Bekdil, a well-known Turkish journalist (who at one stage spent time in the UK) he is always a great read, very straight-forward and tells it like it is, this one may interest you:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/a-century-long-pa...
Wouldn't go as far as to say that I know the mentality but everyone, without single exception was ridiculously hospitable. The problem now is even the cities are turning more to the neo-islamists (AKP & Erdogan) mainly due to corrupt dealings and "getting rich" on the back of under the table &/or nefarious dealings.
I live in Turkey, have been involved here one way or another for more than 10 years. Wife is Turkish (but has lived abroad for many years), she is no fan of the AKP and especially Erdogan. Most people like her are now at the point where staying here is no longer a serious option.
I posted a recent article by Burak Bekdil, a well-known Turkish journalist (who at one stage spent time in the UK) he is always a great read, very straight-forward and tells it like it is, this one may interest you:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/a-century-long-pa...
This was probably 6-7 years ago as we were looking to buy couple of properties in Bodrum area (holiday/holiday let) type of thing. Speculation at the time was that if Turkey does join EU that the prices would sky-rocket. Our main host, in Istanbul, told us pretty plainly;'Don't count on that, not a chance'.
Still, fantastic people, fantastic architecture, Blue Mosque in itself was well worth the visit.
jjlynn27 said:
Wouldn't go as far as to say that I know the mentality but everyone, without single exception was ridiculously hospitable.
This was probably 6-7 years ago as we were looking to buy couple of properties in Bodrum area (holiday/holiday let) type of thing. Speculation at the time was that if Turkey does join EU that the prices would sky-rocket. Our main host, in Istanbul, told us pretty plainly;'Don't count on that, not a chance'.
Still, fantastic people, fantastic architecture, Blue Mosque in itself was well worth the visit.
You should have bought in Bodrum, prices are fairly stable and have gone up over the past 7 to 10 years. Antalya less so.This was probably 6-7 years ago as we were looking to buy couple of properties in Bodrum area (holiday/holiday let) type of thing. Speculation at the time was that if Turkey does join EU that the prices would sky-rocket. Our main host, in Istanbul, told us pretty plainly;'Don't count on that, not a chance'.
Still, fantastic people, fantastic architecture, Blue Mosque in itself was well worth the visit.
Back on topic.... very hospitable, but like everywhere you get the cretins and dodgy types. Unfortunately it is more of these undesirables who have managed to do very well under Reggie Erdogan and his like and believe they are above the laws of the land. And these are the ones who we should worry about if Turkey ever gets into the EU. But hey, there is now zero chance of that happening.
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