The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

Author
Discussion

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
Just watching 'Last Whites of the East End' on the Beeb (1).

One just said 'I think this area has been ethnically cleansed'!

Another said 'We've always had immigrants here, but this is on a scale unprecendented.'

Brexit are tonight changing tact to talk full on about immigration.

Something's changing.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
So you're trolling and demanding replies?
Maybe you're bein paid by the leave camp to do so tongue out
smile if only. any chance of replying on that thread. not demanding anything ,asking people to reply to something i think is the most important part of the debate, namely democracy. others obviously think other issues are more important. i would hate it to drift off the front page before ///ajd gets a chance to reply .

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
wc98 said:
smile if only. any chance of replying on that thread. not demanding anything ,asking people to reply to something i think is the most important part of the debate, namely democracy. others obviously think other issues are more important. i would hate it to drift off the front page before ///ajd gets a chance to reply .
You said you'd keep it on the front page until it had been answered-that seems pretty demanding to me.

And I did contribute-I pointed out that when the government of Poland and the eu's monitoring was raised as an example of bad behaviour by the eu that the polish government has been accused very strongly bunts journalists of trying to turn the media into a tool of government and a propaganda machine.

I'm pretty sure that if the uk government threatened the media for reporting about pro-brexit stories and brought in powers meaning it'd fine and fire people that disagreed with it you'd want something done? But that doesn't happen in the uk....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-r...

Sam All

3,101 posts

100 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
dandarez said:
Just watching 'Last Whites of the East End' on the Beeb (1).

One just said 'I think this area has been ethnically cleansed'!

Another said 'We've always had immigrants here, but this is on a scale unprecendented.'

Brexit are tonight changing tact to talk full on about immigration.

Something's changing.
If Cameron had dealt with this issue more robustly, there would be less uncertainty now.

He had no control over EU migration and did not keep his promise on non EU migration.

Do wish the "leave" campaign had a better strategy, for picking on immigration could backfire no matter how valid the argument. Unless of course British patience/ tolerance is at an end on this issue eg schools, hospitals, doctors, ghettos, crime

steveatesh

4,893 posts

163 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
Sam All said:
If Cameron had dealt with this issue more robustly, there would be less uncertainty now.

He had no control over EU migration and did not keep his promise on non EU migration.

Do wish the "leave" campaign had a better strategy, for picking on immigration could backfire no matter how valid the argument. Unless of course British patience/ tolerance is at an end on this issue eg schools, hospitals, doctors, ghettos, crime
Personally I wish the Vite Leave people had A strategy, never mind a better one!

Unless their strategy is not to have a strategy, in which case it's worked a treat!

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Tuesday 24th May 2016
quotequote all
Sam All said:
Do wish the "leave" campaign had a better strategy, for picking on immigration could backfire no matter how valid the argument. Unless of course British patience/ tolerance is at an end on this issue eg schools, hospitals, doctors, ghettos, crime
Was this documentary part of the Leave campaign? I got the impression it was commissioned by the BBC.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
dandarez said:
Just watching 'Last Whites of the East End' on the Beeb (1).

One just said 'I think this area has been ethnically cleansed'!

Another said 'We've always had immigrants here, but this is on a scale unprecendented.'

Brexit are tonight changing tact to talk full on about immigration.

Something's changing.
Relevance to the EU? Think carefully, Dan.

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
Zod said:
dandarez said:
Just watching 'Last Whites of the East End' on the Beeb (1).

One just said 'I think this area has been ethnically cleansed'!

Another said 'We've always had immigrants here, but this is on a scale unprecendented.'

Brexit are tonight changing tact to talk full on about immigration.

Something's changing.
Relevance to the EU? Think carefully, Dan.
Oops, thanks almighty one ...a few too many Hobgoblins!
beer (Wychwood Brewery ones, not the vex creatures)

Mr_B

10,480 posts

242 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
Mr_B said:
I see you still can't actually comment on the things you pick an argument on. The again, you did the same when you declared Germany unanimously in favour of taking millions of migrants because you read 4 German PH peeps telling you the early wave of immigration was greeted positively.
People might be able to get a flavour of your level just seeing what you want to see from this alone.
People, indeed, should 'get a flavour'. I forgot about your idiocy in that thread. It was explained to you that unanimous was related to those four posters. All four posters, unanimously, expressed same view, which I chose to believe over knuckledraggers quoting express. Not Germany unanimous as a whole, as there is nothing that 80mil people living in Germany would be unanimous on. So you are lying. As simple as that. Thanks for the reminder though, gave me another laugh.

Mr_B said:
It's no too hard to understand. Outside of the EU, our Turkey loving PM can just do a trade deal and Turks can apply to come and live and work here just the same as a hundred plus other countries can.
Inside the EU, our Turkey loving PM and his Turkey loving mates in the EU have a far higher chance of accepting them into the EU with possibly no restrictions. The EU is already happy to do a deal in panic to shove huge sums of money their way and possibly grant visa free access to the Euro zone, apparently to appease all those Turks desperate to holiday in the EU. Guess with net contributor EU country gets to fund that desperate EU bribe to Turkey. Oh yeah, its us.

I'm afraid within the EU it's far easier to push decisions on a dumb public by getting your government department to give a bullst assessment of why its nothing to worry about. In 2004 the same thing happened by letting half of eastern Europe have unrestricted access to the UK on a claim that only 13K a year will come. Had we been out of the EU, who would be demanding total unrestricted access otherwise ? You may look around and wonder why the government isn't calling for total unrestricted access for half of Africa. Why aren't they doing that ?
More drivel. I doubt that Cameron cares either way about Turkey. Cameron, despite blinkered on here saying that he is finished, managed to win election, despite scaremongering by kippers. Despite all those 26mil immigrants coming to get British jobs. Despite Farage disciples predicting upto 20 to 30 seats, as the 'will of the people will be heard', Cameron, democratically managed to wipe the floor with the clown & co. And, in a way force clown to do, oh so embarrassing, 'unresign cause they didn't accept my resignation' fiasco. Visas are to access Schengen Area not 'Euro Zone'. Do you understand the difference? Public is not dumb, they just demonstrably don't share your blinkered views. At least not enough to get more than 1 MP. Who'd walk it even if he stood for pastafarians.

Mr_B said:
You edited your post from saying 'For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again' to include a whole lot more. I replied and quoted just this bit in my reply. Later on you whole a massive amount more. You couldn't even get this meaningless bit correct and wrote something about the need to correct your English. You don't even have a level of honesty when it comes to yourself, let alone debating the politics of scummy politicians and the EU.
No I didn't.
The post still ends with "For the purpose of this discussion, it's irrelevant if Dave 'turns again'."

Edit time is Mon 23, 15:18. There was nothing added after it.

Your post, quoting mine, is @ Mon 23, 15:24.

Show me otherwise. Both posts are still there with timestamps.
Your obsession with the German migrant thread didn't last long when people started pointing out what a desperate sounding dope you were. The question related when a few thousand started coming and were warmly greeted. When Merekel started suggesting it would start to then number millions, I said I doubt that sympathy would be universal in Germany. You rather bizarrely started suggestion it would be because all of four people on PH told you and declared it settled. I think we can safely say when it did start reaching millions and events like mass sexual assaults started happening, the mode wasn't that the vast majority where in favour.
The best bit was when one of the people you relied on in Germany posted the polling saying so and that his village which I think numbered a few thousand was now being designated to take something like three times that in migrants. As I recall you took a break from posting to that thread just after. It served its purpose though, like about 4 other regulars on here, you stood out as posting utter drivel and marked your own card.

You doubt Cameron cares either way on Turkey ? Odd that he gave various speeches on how important it is they join the EU as recently as a few weeks ago. He said he was "angry" their membership was going so slowly and how "passionate" he was this should not be the case and that they had no bigger fan than he on achieving this. Maybe in your make believe world you can claim he doesn't give a fig either way. Here's an idea , why don't you do as before and declare this something you decree 'settled' ?

Lets see what happens this summer and what will probably be another migrant crisis. Do you have any views on the actual subjects at hand, or will you be going back to your FaceBook level debating by getting angry and start talking about Ukip, Farage and 1 MP ? I only because I didn't see what relevance it had to you, me or the the actual part of the debate.
So lets see what deal the EU will do with the corrupt and human rights abusing Turkish leadership and how much money a net EU contributor country like the EU will be handing over. Who would have thought their main demand would be holiday rights for Turks. Maybe they aren't so bad after all.


Mr_B

10,480 posts

242 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
zbc said:
Mr_B said:
amgmcqueen said:
I find it incredible that the IN campaign truly believe the EU can be reformed!
They don't. People like //ajd saying 'stay but reform from within' is just a little bit of BS they tell themselves, to placate themselves.
This vote will be decided by the 99% of the public who think the EU needs serious reform, but vote remain anyway knowing it won't happen.
Finding someone here with the honesty to stand up and say even if it stays as is, remaining in the EU is a good thing , is near impossible. It only smacks of a bad episode of EastEnders where a punch bag wife sticks with some guy saying he loves me and he doesn't mean it and thinking things will change if given another chance.
I said it before on the original thread and I'm happy to repeat that I'm more than happy to be part of a truly federal Europe. Proper disclosure means that I admit that I don't live in the UK, although I am a UK citizen, but also that I in no way work for the EU.

I believe strongly that the EU can be reformed. It's happened many times before; Rome, Maastricht, Lisbon etc so why should it not happen again. Granted it might not be the type of reform that you would like but to say it is incapable of reform is clearly untrue. It's also certain of course that short of starting up our own UKEU then there is no way that we will be able to participate in any reform from the outside.

I don't really accept any of the economic arguments from either side. No one can know what will happen if we leave, or indeed stay. It seems to me that the UK has done reasonably well over the past few years compared to most Western economies and I don't believe that any current political party could possibly change that significantly for the better in or out. Although I think there are a few that could do a lot of damage and that might get elected if the Tories disintegrate.

Immigration is also a weak issue for me. I think as a country we could do more to keep benefit migrants out. Where I live I currently receive some benefits that would be unobtainable by anyone who hadn't paid into the system for some time before. Yes this does exclude young people entering the job market for the first time but maybe that isn't such a disaster either. It might be politically unacceptable in the UK but I'm sure it would have an impact.

The only issue for me is sovereignty/diplomacy. The EU's diplomacy is undoubtedly flawed, although many of the reforms that have occurred have tended to strengthen it rather than weaken it so maybe there's some hope. But I don't see that the UK is such a shining example either. I can't remember when I last voted for anyone in the House of Lords - I must have been out of the country when that happened, but they still retain a lot of power to interfere with legislation.

I've voted in I think 7 elections and I've only ever voted for a winning party once (don't try to work it out I vote on issues not party) and even in that instance my vote didn't help the candidate in my constituency who didn't get elected through the FPTP system. Seems to me, at least personally, that UK democracy isn't so great either.

Ultimately I feel that we express our sovereignty by holding this referendum. If we want to we can vote out and leave and decide for our selves. For sure if we are forced into joining the Euro in the future then Out would have my vote as it would in some of the other wilder examples mentioned in the thread. Also for those in doubt if the vote is Out and they try to have another referendum I will also vote Out. The most important thing a democracy can do is listen to the clearly expressed opinion of the people. In this case it means acting on a referendum result, whichever way it goes.
Thank you for a full and very reasoned reply. It seems 50% or so doesn't mind the idea of being in Europe, but that near 99% of those always tend to say it needs some serious reforms.
After a remain vote giving the EU the legitimacy I feel it never really had to have gone as far as it has done so, I don't see why or how, when the UK is the second class EU that's currently holding off from ever closer union, the Euro currency and schengen zone, it would really reform in any meaningful way after months of negotiations where it basically said 'take it or leave' and it then has a credible remain vote behind it.
In fact , I don't see it doing anything other than making it likely to for all the areas where people say it needs reform to become even worse.
I can't help feel its dreaming to to vote remain and expect more meaningful reforms after.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
Finally, a sane and reasonable speech on the whole affair. Watch it through and stick with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWVO2d9Spks

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 25th May 01:30

Guybrush

4,330 posts

205 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
Memo shows EU is costing UK billions.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/trade-wars-me...

A secret government memo reveals how a trade war between European Union countries is damaging the British economy.

The damning Whitehall assessment – seen by the Telegraph – has found that France and other EU countries are hampering new “free-trade” deals because they want to protect their farmers from the extra competition.

Under EU treaties, the UK cannot negotiate its own trade arrangements and has to wait until Brussels reaches agreements that are acceptable to all 28 member states, a process that often takes years to complete.

Dominic Raab, the justice minister who is campaigning to leave the EU at next month’s referendum, said: “The raw truth is that the EU hates genuinely free trade. That holds Britain back, costs us jobs, and keeps prices on the high street artificially high.”

Andrea Leadsom, the pro-Brexit energy minister, said: “The EU’s record at putting free trade deals in place is weak and getting worse.”

Priti Patel, the employment minister, said EU membership meant the British economy was being “tied to a sinking ship”.

She said: “Being a member of the EU has rendered us powerless to reach our own trade deals and these missed trading opportunities are costing our economy money, jobs and growth".




jmorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
steveatesh said:
Sam All said:
If Cameron had dealt with this issue more robustly, there would be less uncertainty now.

He had no control over EU migration and did not keep his promise on non EU migration.

Do wish the "leave" campaign had a better strategy, for picking on immigration could backfire no matter how valid the argument. Unless of course British patience/ tolerance is at an end on this issue eg schools, hospitals, doctors, ghettos, crime
Personally I wish the Vite Leave people had A strategy, never mind a better one!

Unless their strategy is not to have a strategy, in which case it's worked a treat!
As a fence sitter, both sides come across as such. I have vague promises from Cameron, none of which have a cast iron guarantee and I know the EU have plans he cannot alter, and at the monument I would vote out just to annoy him. The vote leave cannot give any guarantees. No side has a clue of the long term.

From my humble view on life.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
Guybrush said:
Memo shows EU is costing UK billions.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/trade-wars-me...

A secret government memo reveals how a trade war between European Union countries is damaging the British economy.

The damning Whitehall assessment – seen by the Telegraph – has found that France and other EU countries are hampering new “free-trade” deals because they want to protect their farmers from the extra competition.

Under EU treaties, the UK cannot negotiate its own trade arrangements and has to wait until Brussels reaches agreements that are acceptable to all 28 member states, a process that often takes years to complete.

...............

Andrea Leadsom, the pro-Brexit energy minister, said: “The EU’s record at putting free trade deals in place is weak and getting worse.”
And yet some on the leave side say we will get a trade deal completed in 2 years, all nicely wrapped up with little difficulty etc?

Plus I thought Germany just got its way and other countries can't block deals? At least that's what I've been told on here.

Come on-either free trade deals with the eu are easy or they're hard. Leave can't have it both ways!!

grumbledoak

31,501 posts

232 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
And yet some on the leave side say we will get a trade deal completed in 2 years, all nicely wrapped up with little difficulty etc?

Plus I thought Germany just got its way and other countries can't block deals? At least that's what I've been told on here.

Come on-either free trade deals with the eu are easy or they're hard. Leave can't have it both ways!!
You seem to have misunderstood. It is in-fighting within the EU zone that makes trade deals difficult. Some countries, notably but not only France, don't want competition. So they block or slow the creation of trade deals.

This is not a problem for any country outside the EU. They are easy enough to arrange, can and have been done fairly quickly, and the WTO provides defaults.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
cookie118 said:
And yet some on the leave side say we will get a trade deal completed in 2 years, all nicely wrapped up with little difficulty etc?

Plus I thought Germany just got its way and other countries can't block deals? At least that's what I've been told on here.

Come on-either free trade deals with the eu are easy or they're hard. Leave can't have it both ways!!
You seem to have misunderstood. It is in-fighting within the EU zone that makes trade deals difficult. Some countries, notably but not only France, don't want competition. So they block or slow the creation of trade deals.

This is not a problem for any country outside the EU. They are easy enough to arrange, can and have been done fairly quickly, and the WTO provides defaults.
Not at all-I was talking about a free trade deal with the eu after 'brexit'
I've raised this in the past-leave want to have it both ways, that trade deals with the eu are difficult so we should leave, and yet if we do leave (some) claim that we'd have a very easy time negotiating a free trade deal.

grumbledoak

31,501 posts

232 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
Not at all-I was talking about a free trade deal with the eu after 'brexit'
I've raised this in the past-leave want to have it both ways, that trade deals with the eu are difficult so we should leave, and yet if we do leave (some) claim that we'd have a very easy time negotiating a free trade deal.
Why would we care? It is trade deals with the rest of the world that we want but cannot have.

And I would bet a week's pay that Germany won't allow any barriers to us buying their cars if we do leave.

Hosenbugler

1,854 posts

101 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
And yet some on the leave side say we will get a trade deal completed in 2 years, all nicely wrapped up with little difficulty etc?

Plus I thought Germany just got its way and other countries can't block deals? At least that's what I've been told on here.

Come on-either free trade deals with the eu are easy or they're hard. Leave can't have it both ways!!
We'll find out when we leave. There is zero reason as to why trade will not go on UK/rest of Europe as it currently is. They sell us more than we buy from them, they will go to lengths to preserve that.

Meanwhile, we can persue trade on mutual terms with the rest of the world who comprise the vast majority of the world's economies. Freed of the EU straightjacket , and adopting a low tax free trade economy this country would absolutely fly .

PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
And yet some on the leave side say we will get a trade deal completed in 2 years, all nicely wrapped up with little difficulty etc?

Plus I thought Germany just got its way and other countries can't block deals? At least that's what I've been told on here.

Come on-either free trade deals with the eu are easy or they're hard. Leave can't have it both ways!!
The free trade deals are hard with the EU because it's protectionist, that only helps if you import to a particular country more than you export, if the situation is reversed As is the case with the UK it will damage the EU more,take cars, if we did a free trade deal with say Japan and Korea do you think the EU manufacturers will want to be penalised trading into the UK ?

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2016
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
Why would we care? It is trade deals with the rest of the world that we want but cannot have.

And I would bet a week's pay that Germany won't allow any barriers to us buying their cars if we do leave.
Ah yes-the old Germany will get what it wants and that is a free trade deal with the U.K.

But what happens if France want to put a restrictive clause about agricultural funding? Do we just take it or leave it?
Or if the eu holds out for free movement of people and we don't want to-take or leave?

This is played out thousands of times for each free trade deal and is why they take so long-but we'd be done in 2 years because germany says so? I'm not so sure. Surely we'd have free trade deals already in place with whoever Germany wants already then?

The article quoted also says that deals take so long because 28 countries have to agree-this contradicts this view of Germany gets their way all the time!