Things are not looking good in Venezuela.
Discussion
Roofless Toothless said:
To be fair, scattering and not standing clumped in the middle of the road as an easy target was probably the right thing to do if they thought they were being attacked by an aircraft.
I have said this before on PH, but I really must repeat that if you think the situation in Venezuela is all about socialism you are very wrong. There are enlightening articles about the criminality of the Chavez and Maduro families on Wikipedia. Venezuela has had 'leaders' of all political flavours who have bled the country dry.
Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
Roofless Toothless said:
I have said this before on PH, but I really must repeat that if you think the situation in Venezuela is all about socialism you are very wrong. There are enlightening articles about the criminality of the Chavez and Maduro families on Wikipedia. Venezuela has had 'leaders' of all political flavours who have bled the country dry.
Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
I don't think it is necessarily about Venezuela and whether it is socialist or criminal or not. This is about the spectacular lack of judgement by some on the left in UK politics when they said they admire the socialist revolution in Venezuela. Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
It's just a stick to beat the left with since they identified with it so closely and even now can't bring themselves to condemn the violence, poverty, criminality and lack of free speech (just as they never could with Soviet Russia)
I am afraid nothing will change in Venezuela without a violent uprising.
Roofless Toothless said:
I have said this before on PH, but I really must repeat that if you think the situation in Venezuela is all about socialism you are very wrong. There are enlightening articles about the criminality of the Chavez and Maduro families on Wikipedia. Venezuela has had 'leaders' of all political flavours who have bled the country dry.
Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
And things were far better in Cuba before Castro (economically speaking) . Nowhere could have been more socialist than Cuba, and although the country proved to be no utopia, things were far better under the Castro brothers than Venezuela is under the command of this gang of drug dealers and embezzlers. They used the lure of socialism to fool the poor into voting them into power, but it is a charade.
t.In the past in Venezuela whenever the civilian government got too big for their boots the army would come in and clear them out. They had no wish to rule, though, and just set up new elections. The trouble now is that the army is deeply involved with the corruption and criminality from the top down, and this isn't happening. Chavez was a soldier, remember, and at first adopted the stance of putting an end to a corrupt civilian government.
It would be astonishing if a bunch of self obsessed Islington socialists, solving the world's problems from their cafes and bed sits in north London had any more than a vague idea about the history of Venezuela, other than it was near glorious Cuba, so of course they have been taken in by all this talk of socialism.
I have lived in Venezuela for several years of my life, my wife is Venezuelan and most of her family are still there and suffering. We hear from them regularly about what is going on.
My point in posting here is to remind people that a knee jerk reaction that this is all about the evils of socialism is as far from the truth as Corbyn et al trying to defend it.
It would be astonishing if a bunch of self obsessed Islington socialists, solving the world's problems from their cafes and bed sits in north London had any more than a vague idea about the history of Venezuela, other than it was near glorious Cuba, so of course they have been taken in by all this talk of socialism.
I have lived in Venezuela for several years of my life, my wife is Venezuelan and most of her family are still there and suffering. We hear from them regularly about what is going on.
My point in posting here is to remind people that a knee jerk reaction that this is all about the evils of socialism is as far from the truth as Corbyn et al trying to defend it.
Jinx said:
And things were far better in Cuba before Castro (economically speaking) .
Any wealth Cuba had was at the gift of the USSR since their demise they have struggled. There is a great Documentary about an American documentary maker who befriended Castro many years ago and it follows his visits to Cuba and over many years documents the lives of some very ordinary people in particular three farming brothers.Castro actually comes across in private as a warm and thoughtful person and then the otherside is always just below the surface
What surprises me is that they had elections there in May (I think) of this year and voted the same lot in for another 6 years. Surely with the state of the country they should have lost by a landslide. Is it also extremely corrupt, where elections are just a front and don't actually mean anything, or are the people really being lead by the nose into thinking this is still the way to go?
Ayahuasca said:
Venezuela has always been a kleptocracy; nothing changes there.
The main problem now is not socialism but incompetence. Chavez was not the brightest star in the sky, but Maduro makes him look like an intellectual supernova.
You can't fool me with big words. I had to look that up! The main problem now is not socialism but incompetence. Chavez was not the brightest star in the sky, but Maduro makes him look like an intellectual supernova.
Yes, a blend of corruption and incompetence does wonders to screw a country up.
In the 1930's there was a good old fashioned right wing despot called Juan Gomez in charge of the country. There's an informative Wikipedia article about him here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Vicente_G%C3%B3...
The people blaming Venezuela's woes on socialism might care to give this a look. Although he 'modernised' the country by opening it up to American oil companies, he somehow managed to end up as the country's richest man, at the expense of the populace, who remained uneducated and brutally repressed.
My wife's grandfather was a newspaper editor at this time, and published articles attacking Gomez. He ended up in one of his prisons, and years later used to show his grandchildren the scars on his wrists and ankles from the manacles and leg irons. Eventually he managed to get to the Dominican Republic (where there is a street named after him in the capital). This is him.
He was a very great and brave man, and is remembered in Venezuelan history books.
Venezuelans have been fighting despotic governments for generations. There was a period in the 1970's onwards when things were looking better, and the place was held as a beacon of democracy in South America, but when I lived there it was clear to me that this was a show of democracy for the middle classes, as long as they didn't rock the boat for the half dozen or so supra-rich families who really ran the country. The poor people, who lived up on the hillsides around Caracas or in the country, were simply not even in the game, unenfranchised and ignorant. The better off Venezuelans enjoying the concert halls and restaurants of Caracas never gave them a thought, except when they wanted their shoes shined, or their shiny Cadillacs cleaned.
What Chavez did was bring these people into the political process, and the middle class voters were swamped. Even some of the more liberal middle class voted for Chavez. But, ironically, it is the poor who are suffering the most now. It is these people who are flooding across the borders into Brazil and Colombia.
I read the other day that 7% of the population has fled. I would put it higher. Loads of richer Venezuelans have been running to Florida or Europe for years. Perhaps the reason why there haven't been uprisings so far is that flight is seen as a better option than fight.
johnxjsc1985 said:
Any wealth Cuba had was at the gift of the USSR since their demise they have struggled. There is a great Documentary about an American documentary maker who befriended Castro many years ago and it follows his visits to Cuba and over many years documents the lives of some very ordinary people in particular three farming brothers.
Castro actually comes across in private as a warm and thoughtful person and then the otherside is always just below the surface
the embargo probably had a large effect on that.Castro actually comes across in private as a warm and thoughtful person and then the otherside is always just below the surface
Seems that he embargo costs both countries a large amount.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embarg...
Is it the same path Zimbabwe took, the results are similar, I've just googled Mugabe to find out what his leanings were. Self declared Socialist apparently, but favoured conservative economic policies, which leads me to think it was just his corruption that killed Zimbabwe's economy.
Roofless Toothless said:
Eventually he managed to get to the Dominican Republic (where there is a street named after him in the capital.
I read the other day that 7% of the population has fled. I would put it higher.
I am not sure Trujillo's Dominican Republic was a bastion of democracy either. Can you prounounce 'perejil'?I read the other day that 7% of the population has fled. I would put it higher.
Maybe 7% of the entire population, but more like 90% of the population that is able to leave.
I see they have just arrested a Swiss banker in the US for laundering 1.2 billion dollars of PDVSA oil money. One of my friends was a Swiss banker in Panama- he kept a bust of Chavez in his office! My firm was once offered enormous amounts of PDVSA money to invest - fortunately our compliance department is a bit tougher on SOF than the Swiss banks are /were.
Yes, the parsley massacre. But we are talking long before Trujillo, about 1919 I think. The family eventually wound up in New York.
Of course Pastor Maldonado, who was sponsored by Venezuela's state owned oil company, was a personal friend of Hugo Chavez. I'm sure that was entirely coincidental.
Of course Pastor Maldonado, who was sponsored by Venezuela's state owned oil company, was a personal friend of Hugo Chavez. I'm sure that was entirely coincidental.
Edited by Roofless Toothless on Thursday 23 August 16:52
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