Things are not looking good in Venezuela.
Discussion
PMacanGTS said:
Another US backed coup. When asked the question, ‘Why doesn’t socialism work?’, neoliberals should be honest and say ‘Because we don't want it to.’ I’d have more respect for those 
s if they were honest about their psychotic behaviour rather than blaming a ‘system’.
Where has socialism ever succeeded rather than others saying it should fail?s if they were honest about their psychotic behaviour rather than blaming a ‘system’.Modern Chile is flawed but maybe the best example?
Vaud said:
You know what I meant. I genuinely didn't follow your prior post. I am interested in your view.
My apologies. My point was, both the liberal, and now neoliberal, agenda, that insidiously pervades most western governments and institutions, is ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. It’s a battle of ideas, and what liberals/neoliberals have been brilliant at is undermining states where socialism has been adopted. The US, as the vanguard in this liberal/neoliberal agenda, has used its considerable might to bring about regime change on numerous occasions, including in the USSR.Socialism in its purest form, has never succeeded because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
PMacanGTS said:
Vaud said:
You know what I meant. I genuinely didn't follow your prior post. I am interested in your view.
My apologies. My point was, both the liberal, and now neoliberal, agenda, that insidiously pervades most western governments and institutions, is ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. It’s a battle of ideas, and what liberals/neoliberals have been brilliant at is undermining states where socialism has been adopted. The US, as the vanguard in this liberal/neoliberal agenda, has used its considerable might to bring about regime change on numerous occasions, including in the USSR.Socialism in its purest form, has never succeed because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
The USSR was in a state of decrepitude due to socialist policy without much help from the US as I remember it, and if the US acts against communism it's because communism acted against the US because the US acted against communism and ad infinitum, there are no 'white hats' in geopolitics - Cuba may have had a different history if it hadn't set itself up as the aircraft carrier of the USSR...
If a 'contrary regime' is teetering on the brink so much that a little shove sends it into the abyss then it couldn't have been much of a system in the first place - and it wasn't.
PMacanGTS said:
My apologies. My point was, both the liberal, and now neoliberal, agenda, that insidiously pervades most western governments and institutions, is ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. It’s a battle of ideas, and what liberals/neoliberals have been brilliant at is undermining states where socialism has been adopted. The US, as the vanguard in this liberal/neoliberal agenda, has used its considerable might to bring about regime change on numerous occasions, including in the USSR.
Socialism in its purest form, has never succeeded because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
Ah, now I understand and partly agree. Socialism in its purest form, has never succeeded because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
But socialism (and communism) implemented as a pure ideal should be challenged... the people should be allowed to decide on their leaders.
Socialist leaders elected in a democratic model tend to fail, partly for the reasons you outline, but also through the issue of human greed by the politicians.
andy_s said:
I wouldn't privilege 'socialism' as a target for US interests, they are necessarily involved to some degree in most country's affairs (a small war in a dusty place ring a bell?).
The USSR was in a state of decrepitude due to socialist policy without much help from the US as I remember it, and if the US acts against communism it's because communism acted against the US because the US acted against communism and ad infinitum, there are no 'white hats' in geopolitics - Cuba may have had a different history if it hadn't set itself up as the aircraft carrier of the USSR...
If a 'contrary regime' is teetering on the brink so much that a little shove sends it into the abyss then it couldn't have been much of a system in the first place - and it wasn't.
You need a history lesson. The US doesn’t make much of a secret of being ideologically opposed to socialism. The Korean War, Vietnam and the Cold War were all driven by this ideology. Not to mention the coups in countless Latin American countries during the mid to late 20th century. Even the word ‘socialism’ is used as a weapon of fear in US politics. The USSR was in a state of decrepitude due to socialist policy without much help from the US as I remember it, and if the US acts against communism it's because communism acted against the US because the US acted against communism and ad infinitum, there are no 'white hats' in geopolitics - Cuba may have had a different history if it hadn't set itself up as the aircraft carrier of the USSR...
If a 'contrary regime' is teetering on the brink so much that a little shove sends it into the abyss then it couldn't have been much of a system in the first place - and it wasn't.
PMacanGTS said:
You need a history lesson. The US doesn’t make much of a secret of being ideologically opposed to socialism. The Korean War, Vietnam and the Cold War were all driven by this ideology. Not to mention the coups in countless Latin American countries during the mid to late 20th century. Even the word ‘socialism’ is used as a weapon of fear in US politics.
Truly a revelation....Try a reading lesson - that's half of what I only just said.
PMacanGTS said:
My apologies. My point was, both the liberal, and now neoliberal, agenda, that insidiously pervades most western governments and institutions, is ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. It’s a battle of ideas, and what liberals/neoliberals have been brilliant at is undermining states where socialism has been adopted. The US, as the vanguard in this liberal/neoliberal agenda, has used its considerable might to bring about regime change on numerous occasions, including in the USSR.
Socialism in its purest form, has never succeeded because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
Wow. I had to re-read this a few times.Socialism in its purest form, has never succeeded because it’s never been allowed to. Even those governments they couldn’t topple, like Castro in Cuba, were systemically attacked both overtly through sanctions etc. and covertly. No matter the cost to the local population.
I think communism has had plenty of opportunities in various corners of the world. The consistent result has been abject underachievement/misery for all involved.
What sort of socialist purity do you strive for? Pol Pot levels of purity?
With Venezuela it’s the same tedious lines regurgitated again and again - blame the US Imperialist aggressors etc etc blah blah.
Venezuela is crowning proof of socialism’s failure versus capitalism - some of the biggest crude oil reserves on the planet situated on the doorstep of the world’s biggest consumer of crude and they still screwed it up. A capitalist would have re-invested PDVSA’s profits to produce yet more crude oil, but instead the company was ruined by socialist incompetents and bled dry. The goose that laid the golden egg was killed.
1 million percent inflation at the end of last year, if I recall correctly.
Never ceases to amaze me that people still regard communism as a creative structure for an economy.
Hereward said:
Wow. I had to re-read this a few times.
I think communism has had plenty of opportunities in various corners of the world. The consistent result has been abject underachievement/misery for all involved.
What sort of socialist purity do you strive for? Pol Pot levels of purity?
With Venezuela it’s the same tedious lines regurgitated again and again - blame the US Imperialist aggressors etc etc blah blah.
Venezuela is crowning proof of socialism’s failure versus capitalism - some of the biggest crude oil reserves on the planet situated on the doorstep of the world’s biggest consumer of crude and they still screwed it up. A capitalist would have re-invested PDVSA’s profits to produce yet more crude oil, but instead the company was ruined by socialist incompetents and bled dry. The goose that laid the golden egg was killed.
1 million percent inflation at the end of last year, if I recall correctly.
Never ceases to amaze me that people still regard communism as a creative structure for an economy.
Try scratching the surface of why the above happened. Why couldn’t they make use of their oil profits? I suggest you look into that. Again, you just regurgitate western media bullet points, without any search beyond headlines and sound bites. I think communism has had plenty of opportunities in various corners of the world. The consistent result has been abject underachievement/misery for all involved.
What sort of socialist purity do you strive for? Pol Pot levels of purity?
With Venezuela it’s the same tedious lines regurgitated again and again - blame the US Imperialist aggressors etc etc blah blah.
Venezuela is crowning proof of socialism’s failure versus capitalism - some of the biggest crude oil reserves on the planet situated on the doorstep of the world’s biggest consumer of crude and they still screwed it up. A capitalist would have re-invested PDVSA’s profits to produce yet more crude oil, but instead the company was ruined by socialist incompetents and bled dry. The goose that laid the golden egg was killed.
1 million percent inflation at the end of last year, if I recall correctly.
Never ceases to amaze me that people still regard communism as a creative structure for an economy.
PMacanGTS said:
Hereward said:
Wow. I had to re-read this a few times.
I think communism has had plenty of opportunities in various corners of the world. The consistent result has been abject underachievement/misery for all involved.
What sort of socialist purity do you strive for? Pol Pot levels of purity?
With Venezuela it’s the same tedious lines regurgitated again and again - blame the US Imperialist aggressors etc etc blah blah.
Venezuela is crowning proof of socialism’s failure versus capitalism - some of the biggest crude oil reserves on the planet situated on the doorstep of the world’s biggest consumer of crude and they still screwed it up. A capitalist would have re-invested PDVSA’s profits to produce yet more crude oil, but instead the company was ruined by socialist incompetents and bled dry. The goose that laid the golden egg was killed.
1 million percent inflation at the end of last year, if I recall correctly.
Never ceases to amaze me that people still regard communism as a creative structure for an economy.
Try scratching the surface of why the above happened. Why couldn’t they make use of their oil profits? I suggest you look into that. Again, you just regurgitate western media bullet points, without any search beyond headlines and sound bites. I think communism has had plenty of opportunities in various corners of the world. The consistent result has been abject underachievement/misery for all involved.
What sort of socialist purity do you strive for? Pol Pot levels of purity?
With Venezuela it’s the same tedious lines regurgitated again and again - blame the US Imperialist aggressors etc etc blah blah.
Venezuela is crowning proof of socialism’s failure versus capitalism - some of the biggest crude oil reserves on the planet situated on the doorstep of the world’s biggest consumer of crude and they still screwed it up. A capitalist would have re-invested PDVSA’s profits to produce yet more crude oil, but instead the company was ruined by socialist incompetents and bled dry. The goose that laid the golden egg was killed.
1 million percent inflation at the end of last year, if I recall correctly.
Never ceases to amaze me that people still regard communism as a creative structure for an economy.
Dr Jekyll said:
That’s more neoliberal propaganda. Try this:https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-...
PMacanGTS said:
andy_s said:
Truly a revelation....
Try a reading lesson - that's half of what I only just said.
No it wasn’t. Try a reading lesson - that's half of what I only just said.
'Don't privilege 'socialism'' = ...it's not just socialism the US is involved with.
If you want history, read Solzhenitsyn or Dostoevsky, read Das Kapital by the bourgeois Karl Marx and see what he omitted in his great theory, you may intuitively come to the same conclusions as Sowell, Keynes, Freidman, Hayek, Hegel or even Engels himself. See The Killing Fields or if you can't stomach a 'right' version then look at Year Zero by Pilger to see calamity and needless death on both sides or Orwell's Wigan Pier to see how moderate socialism or socialist elements maybe good but in 1984 how the dystopian conclusion may be very harmful. See what any ideology does to a country - right or left, it ain't pleasant, and to me support of such a bare-faced ideological trap that accounts for more deaths than any other style of governance, including fascism and national socialism, through necessary oppression of the common citizen while dressed up as being the very opposite is more insidious and more reprehensible than any geopolitical tinkering by states that at least proffer some form of liberal [classic, not neo] freedom to its citizens.
f
king 'read history', try it some time.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff