Things are not looking good in Venezuela.

[PMacanGTS]

Dr Jekyll said:

I can't name a neoliberal state. But I can name lots of states that have succeeded without suppressing the rights of their citizens and they are all free market capitalist economies.

I can’t think of one free market economy (that’s neoliberalism by definition) that doesn’t suppress the rights of its citizens.

[PMacanGTS]

simoid said:

I assume and infer nothing about your system preferences. Just pointing out where your logic was going.

If we didn’t want more than our neighbour, or at least more tomorrow than we had yesterday, we’re fked too. In fact we’d be extinct. Hopefully as a species we all push and drag each other on and don’t step on each other.

Can’t we all want more tomorrow, without it being a zero sum game?

[Dr Jekyll]

PMacanGTS said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Do you think the US should have not got involved with Korea/ Vietnam/ Cold War, so in effect allow the USSR do as it pleased?

Do you think the US did right getting involved with the European war of the 1940s?

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

Up until the 1930s the USSR was widely seen as the future of mankind, and this attitude remained in some quarters until the 1950s, it was only the soviet actions in Hungary that persuaded their apologists to take a reality pill.

[skyrover]

Ask the poles/estonians/latvians/lithuanians etc etc how they feel about Soviet Utopia.

[simoid]

PMacanGTS said:

simoid said:

I assume and infer nothing about your system preferences. Just pointing out where your logic was going.

If we didn’t want more than our neighbour, or at least more tomorrow than we had yesterday, we’re fked too. In fact we’d be extinct. Hopefully as a species we all push and drag each other on and don’t step on each other.

Can’t we all want more tomorrow, without it being a zero sum game?

Well, yes, I did say that, see A decent and time-proven way for that to happen is for inspiration and perspiration to be incentivised and rewarded in an economy.

[hidetheelephants]

PMacanGTS said:

Try scratching the surface of why the above happened. Why couldn’t they make use of their oil profits?

They did, pissing them away on military equipment they would never need, fuel and food subsidies to placate the masses and the rest syphoned off by corruption. Then once the oil price tanked they didn't stop spending.

[Finlandia]

PMacanGTS said:

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

The Finns have a very different view on the above.

[Gargamel]

PMacanGTS said:

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

I don’t think pressure from the West accounts for Stalin’s purges of the Red Army, or the number of dissidents internally that were killed. That was all internal politics and preventing dissenting/rebel voices - see Chechnya as an example.

I think many of us recognise Russia as an historic ally in two global conflicts, it is a great pity we were unable to align in peacetime.

[nikaiyo2]

PMacanGTS said:

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

So the USSR was threatened by the US BEFORE it expanded into eastern Europe and subjugated it by force. Pull the other one.

You support the US's actions against the Nazis? That was ok? Or is that another war they should not have become involved with?

[chris watton]

PMacanGTS said:

Dr Jekyll said:

I can't name a neoliberal state. But I can name lots of states that have succeeded without suppressing the rights of their citizens and they are all free market capitalist economies.

I can’t think of one free market economy (that’s neoliberalism by definition) that doesn’t suppress the rights of its citizens.

I think you are wasted here, in this nasty capitalist pig of a country, you really should travel over to Venezuela and fight against those nasty people rebelling against the glorious leader!

[Gandahar]

Just watched El Presidente do a 1 hour talk to a group of folk, apparently the "2nd Working meeting with the Productive Councils of the workers to receive proposals that promote the productive development of the Country." off his twitter account

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/116247679...

Hey, I thought it was just a 1 min recap, that's my excuse anyhow.

Interestingly the productive council of the workers looked less like regimented uniform wearing replicant soldier ants like in Mao's time and more like a badly dressed bunch of farm hands. They looked bored until the camera was on them or they got the raise in voice from El Presidente to start chanting or clapping or waving their Bolivar knickers in the air like they don't care.

Getting back to the latest round of massive sanctions put on them due to John Bolton egging on Donald, everyone gets penalised apart from one company. Guess which?

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/26/business/chevro...

"Treasury provided no reason for granting the extension, which expires October 25, 2019."

The reason is obvious, if the current regime fails and a pro US government gets into power they are going to need massive outside help on the oil side to get that running properly again. What better than a huge american oil company having a massive advantage?

It sounds terribly capitalistic for the workers party etc, but in the long run that actually might help them all out down there.

Will be interesting to see how it goes.

[alfaman]

PMacanGTS said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Do you think the US should have not got involved with Korea/ Vietnam/ Cold War, so in effect allow the USSR do as it pleased?

Do you think the US did right getting involved with the European war of the 1940s?

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

Yeah ... like murdering 30 million of their citizens and sending millions to prison camps where they were starved and tortured ..

Was just propaganda by those evil capitalists in the US.

nothing to do with genocidal tendencies by the Bolsheviks and Stalin.



you are Jeremy Corbyn - right?

[Gandahar]

My mate is now worrying after me after I sent a twieet to Maduro that he was just a fat old bus driver.

Considering the reduced airlines visiting there currently I am sure I can get my wife armoured up before the banana boat arrives

[Gandahar]

alfaman said:

PMacanGTS said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Do you think the US should have not got involved with Korea/ Vietnam/ Cold War, so in effect allow the USSR do as it pleased?

Do you think the US did right getting involved with the European war of the 1940s?

Cause and effect, it’s so ingrained in us in the west that the USSR was evil. But would they have been so expansionary without the threat from the US? Probably not. If a country or government feels threatened, they’ll react, just as they did.

Yeah ... like murdering 30 million of their citizens and sending millions to prison camps where they were starved and tortured ..

Was just propaganda by those evil capitalists in the US.

nothing to do with genocidal tendencies by the Bolsheviks and Stalin.



you are Jeremy Corbyn - right?

You were doing alright until your last sentence which just showed you had not put much thought into the whole argument.

[BlackLabel]

Venezuela have just been given a seat on the United Nations Human Rights Council.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-500...

[Blib]

They'll be right at home.

[Gandahar]

Whilst eyes are turned on the Middle East at the moment I thought this was an interesting read on another oil producing nation under sanctions

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Venezue...

They seem to be doing quietly quietly softly softly whilst eyes focused elsewhere.

Will be interesting to see what happens there in 2020 as well.